DiscussionHistorical Fact Checking

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

With it being Pride month, even those criticizing the "first brick" narrative often hedge their bets by reminding readers that trans people "did a lot" for the LGBT movement. In particular, they often mention Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson and S.T.A.R.

From Wikipedia:

Together with the GLF, STAR hosted a fundraising dance on November 21, 1970, and with these funds they were able to purchase STAR House. They found a 4-bedroom apartment in a run-down building at 213 East 2nd Street, in the East Village in New York. The apartment had no electricity or heat, but they began working to repair it. Rivera and Johnson used to hustle the streets in order to keep everyone fed and sheltered, and to keep "their kids" (the runaways they took in) from having to do the same. This STAR house was only active until July 1971.

So, STAR was only up and running for about 6 months. I was honestly surprised to read this because I figured that as much as people talk about it, it must have lasted a bit longer than that.

So, on one level, I respect Rivera and Johnson for trying. I respect their intentions. I'll give them that. On the other hand, they could not get their shit together enough for it to last more than six months.

In contrast, I know a woman who started a cat rescue in her garage back in 1994. She built it up into an independent shelter supported by donations, and over the years, she's gotten over 10,000 cats adopted in addition to their low-cost spay/neuter clinic.

It's my sense that pretty much everything about Sylvia Rivera's actual accomplishments gets exaggerated and that she's more a symbol than anything else, mostly a symbol of trans resentment against mainstream LGB activism.

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[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s impressive what they’ve done, even if it was a success. The fact still remains that they didn’t do all the work. I’m all for activists trying to get these two drag queens - gay men - acknowledged for the work they’ve done, but TRAs are lying about these two men, and they will use half truths to further their agenda.

[–]Neo_Shadow_LurkerPronouns: I/Don't/Care 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's my sense that pretty much everything about Sylvia Rivera's actual accomplishments gets exaggerated and that she's more a symbol than anything else, mostly a symbol of trans resentment against mainstream LGB activism.

All of this is part of a process to create a mythology behind the T in order to justify it's inclusion in the gay and lesbian rights movement. In order to do this, they have to push the notion 'they always been there' in order to gaslight people into accepting the recent colonization by the TRAs.

I bet the next group they'll try to pull this shit is the 'non-binary' crowd, mark my words.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Sylvia Rivera, Marsha P. Johnson and S.T.A.R.

I tried to be aware of gay history in my youth but i never heard of these two until recently.

[–]odiusgay man 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Same. I remember reading about Syliva Rivera as she relates to transgender history, but never Johnson.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I commend Sylvia and Marsha for trying, they had good intentions and were really trying to help people in the community. Even though STAR only lasted 6 months, those 6 months helped people who had nowhere else to turn, and that should be applauded. Their contributions have been over-hyped though, and it's insane just how much.

It's also completely erasing who they were and how they lived their lives to post-posthumously transgender either of them. Yes, language can change over time, and words that once meant one thing can mean another. But even if we assume the prefix "trans" back then meant exactly what it does now, BOTH OF THEM STATED THEY WERE NOT. They were gay males using sex work to hustle.

It's so disrespectful, not only to us, but to them too.

I don't understand how their lived, spoken, and recorded experiences can be so blatantly twisted and ignored, and everyone just goes along with it. There's literal evidence and proof, and everyone is like, "no, wrong, next!"

[–]soundsituationI myself was once a gay 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

In contrast, I know a woman who started a cat rescue in her garage back in 1994. She built it up into an independent shelter supported by donations, and over the years, she's gotten over 10,000 cats adopted in addition to their low-cost spay/neuter clinic.

Does she have a website? I'd love to support this amazing individual.

[–]Virginia_Plain 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think Marsha and Sylvia represent a better image for the queer theory (and critical theory in general) crowd, which fetishizes dysfunctional people. There is an attitude that unkempt, mentally unbalanced people are more "authentic" than people who are not. I'm not saying Rivera and Johnson were bad people, but based on how their lives played out, there were obvious mental health issues. Johnson was taken in for the remainder of his life by a friend who recognized Johnson's inability to live independently.

I think that the idea of Homeless! Mentally Ill! Subaltern! Sex Workers! of Color! being the actual driving force behind any and all progress for gay people worldwide is just such a juicy prospect that they can't help but try to push it.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think Marsha and Sylvia represent a better image for the queer theory (and critical theory in general) crowd, which fetishizes dysfunctional people. There is an attitude that unkempt, mentally unbalanced people are more "authentic" than people who are not. I'm not saying Rivera and Johnson were bad people, but based on how their lives played out, there were obvious mental health issues. Johnson was taken in for the remainder of his life by a friend who recognized Johnson's inability to live independently.

I was about the post the same thing, and I was trying to think about how to put it.

If you're involved in grassroots/amateur activism, at some point you have to confront the fact that it will attract a certain number of extremely dysfunctional people, and since it's volunteer, you have to figure out some way to cope with them. It's not an easy thing. In one group I was involved with, we had a gay guy who was in the initial stages of schizophrenia. We tried to help him, arranging places for him to stay and eventually getting him back to his family who got him hospitalized. Problem was, when he was released from the hospital, he just disappeared one day. That was almost 20 years ago. Even his family doesn't know if he's alive or dead. No efforts to find him have been successful.

But back to the main point, you can't really organize a successful movement for social progress if your own life is so profoundly disordered that you can't even take care of yourself. A friend of mine whose son had cancer gave me this advice once: You have to take care of yourself so you can take care of other people.

With Johnson, it's obvious that he was extremely mentally ill. In interviews I've seen with Rivera, it's more subtle, but she sets off my "personality disorder" detector. In a 1995 interview with Randy Wicker, they show that Rivera is living in a makeshift shelter on the street. She talked about wanting to get a job doing something, but you have to wonder if she was even minimally employable or if she would have been too much trouble to have around.

I think I remember reading in David Carter's book that Craig Rodwell was actually meeting with people in the NYC mayor's office to try to get the police to stop harassing gay bars before Stonewall. Can you imagine Sylvia Rivera or Marsha P. Johnson trying to meet with a public official in 1968 or 69 and being taken seriously? They would have thought, "Who are these nutjobs?"

The people who actually made progress on gay rights were people who had functional lives. They got law degrees or ran businesses. They understood how to sustain organizations and use them to achieve goals.

[–]Virginia_Plain 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Julien:

That is very tragic, and I think cases like his and Johnson's show a good side of the LGB community, one that is willing to fill in the roles that social services and family cannot or will not.

But like you said, there is a point at which you have to get shit done, and sometimes there are people who simply cannot meet realistic goals. It doesn't matter how sweet natured they are, they are too scattered to really accomplish much.

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sylvia Rivera telling verifiable lies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHMTSAJ9ykg