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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The “ex-TRA” aspect is interesting bc it’s horseshoe theory in action. They still sound a lot like a TRA still in their beliefs. They think gay is a choice and an identity. They’re gay-identified but clearly a bisexual in denial who assumes all heterosexuals and homosexuals are too but we just won’t admit that we are and that we’ve made a choice. So in their minds we’re disingenuous liars when really they’re just projecting their sexual orientation and politics onto us, just like the typical TRA does. Still woke homophobes.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

They still sound a lot like a TRA still in their beliefs.

People go through a gradual process when changing their beliefs, it happens bit by bit.

I think you all successfully chased that guy away, or will very soon.

Your behavior is also part of the equation here. You're harming the DroptheT movement by being so abrasive and combative, and assuming the worst of people who are dipping their toes in your pond (so to speak.)

If you can't empathize with others at least understand that you never have the right to scorn and abuse them.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You’re entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree with yours here. It’s not the first time. I agree with some things you say and disagree with others. That’s what I like about this place. That we can do that here and there’s not hard feelings on my end. I don’t think our differences of perspective or priority are harmful to my reasons for wanting LGB orgs to detach from gender ideology.

I try not to be dogmatic but every time I feel myself getting there I like to take a step back and get some perspective.

If you can't empathize with others

I empathize just fine with others, including the poster, but doesn’t mean I don’t think their projections are not harmful. I didn’t report their post or try to take away their right to speak, but I sure as hell want to convey with my limited time and energy resources why their perspective is inaccurate and harmful.

So no, my actions do not arise from a lack of empathy. In my life I surround myself with people with a diversity of experiences and viewpoints, some of whom I vehemently disagree with on some things. One of my closest friends is a TRA. She’s messaging me right now, in fact. I follow and read the work of a lot of radfems and gender critical feminists. I follow and am friends with conservatives, but I am not one. I’m pretty good on empathy and tolerance.

at least understand that you never have the right to scorn and abuse them.

Yea, that’s a weighty accusation. Could I have been more gentle in my delivery? Sure, but abusive? I don’t see it. Feel free to point out what you think arises to the level of abusive.

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

I'm pretty sure she's blocked me, but me and her have had several long arguments where she denies that these people exist and accuses me of hating all bi people for bringing it up.

(Also, you, I'm still planning on replying to your message, it's just hard to type it all out)

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm pretty sure she's blocked me, but me and her have had several long arguments where she denies that these people exist and accuses me of hating all bi people for bringing it up.

This is what I had in mind when I asked her, and I think she has fundamentally misjudged me and where my concern is coming from. I gathered she was very touchy about that and I know from that that she does not believe that there is a significant subset of bisexual people who call themselves gay or lesbian while knowing they are attracted to both sexes. I quite frankly do not understand the denial because there is abundant evidence that this is the case, many people openly admit to it, and we benefit from being able to recognize and respect differences and understand that words have consistent meanings when we use them and from our words being based on a common baseline understanding. By not recognizing this problem, the result is simultaneous bisexual and homosexual erasure here. So I think we all have a stake in this, especially because I would like there to be an actual community -- a social community and a community of understanding -- of lesbians, bisexuals, and gay men, and separately between lesbians and bisexual women, and separately for each of our individual groups. And I think we all need to be able to recognize and call out the bad actors/transgressors within and from our own communities or at least not jump on others who do, because we understand the nuanced issues at stake.

(Also, you, I'm still planning on replying to your message, it's just hard to type it all out)

No rush on that. Seriously.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's inexplicable. I think it's just a case of being overly defensive with little understanding of gay issues. Especially with that reaction to your suggestion of bi in denial (which I agree with); you were in no way claiming that bisexuality should be some "ugly, dirty secret", but it doesn't erase the fact that some bisexual and even homosexual people can be in denial for various reasons. Also, some bi and homosexual people may actually feel that their sexuality is an "ugly, dirty secret", but that's something we should work towards fixing, not project onto others and then get offended. I wholeheartedly agree with your point on words needing meaning and being defined collectively.

I think we all need to be able to recognize and call out the bad actors/transgressors within and from our own communities or at least not jump on others who do, because we understand the nuanced issues at stake.

Exactly. Bisexuals do that less than other groups, which is causing bis-in-denial to wreak havoc on everyone's understanding of sexual orientation. I just think that because most bi people can blend into another group, they just feel they don't have a dog in that race, but yet they still feel personally attacked when the fact that these people are bi is mentioned.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for saying I have a right to an opinion, a lot of people don't think that. I appreciate the respect, you obviously have that same right and can take or leave anything I say.

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

Obviously! You know you did! Acting like being bisexual is some ugly dirty secret that you've caught a usurper engaging in is offensive to say the least. Dumping disapprobation on someone because you think you've sniffed out a bisexual is abusive behavior. You don't get to define other people or order them to accept an unwanted identity. This is directly contributing to a problem you want to rectify- bisexuals pretending to be gay.

People don't remember what you say, they remember how you made them feel. That guy's deeper in the closet now!

You would absolutely lose your top if someone accused you of being a bisexual in denial, and I've gotten the impression that other lesbians sometimes do just by your fixation on the topic. This is where my empathy comment came from. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Write a comment that you could take reading about yourself.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Literally another bisexual on here said OP is most likely a closet bi. Why is this an issue for you? There's nothing wrong with being bi, and OP might not be aware of their biases as a result of being bi (not understanding/empathizing with monosexuals).

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sick of being told I'm ignorant about a problem I'm well aware exists. I get it that there's a problem. You seem to think I'm disputing whether the OP on the other thread is bisexual, he appears to be, but he's also a stranger on the internet who is text on a screen.

You catch more flies with honey and attacking people gets you nowhere and exacerbates the problem. That's my point. Anger just drives people away, you have to make your point and let him figure out his end of the deal.

I also think it's ridiculous to heap vitriol on someone who's coming out of systematic brainwashing during their formative years and expecting them to instinctively understand the taboos of feminist lesbians. That conversation was an embarrassment to all of you.