HomophobiaWhat's the general consensus on sexuality being a choice? • /s/GenderCritical (aka when GC and TQ agree, you get homophobia (Quelle surprise!)

submitted by yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" from (saidit.net)

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[–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

The OP of that thread is an admitted former-TRA who only recently stopped, and is coming to terms with himself being "gay-identified" and critical of gender as a construct. He's gonna be a hot mess for a while.

I'd be wary of OP, but not necessarily take the post as an indication of s/GenderCritical leaning into homophobia overall. Pretty sure mods will give the OP the boot once they're back online and see all the "mansplaining" in his (currently removed) comments.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The “ex-TRA” aspect is interesting bc it’s horseshoe theory in action. They still sound a lot like a TRA still in their beliefs. They think gay is a choice and an identity. They’re gay-identified but clearly a bisexual in denial who assumes all heterosexuals and homosexuals are too but we just won’t admit that we are and that we’ve made a choice. So in their minds we’re disingenuous liars when really they’re just projecting their sexual orientation and politics onto us, just like the typical TRA does. Still woke homophobes.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

They still sound a lot like a TRA still in their beliefs.

People go through a gradual process when changing their beliefs, it happens bit by bit.

I think you all successfully chased that guy away, or will very soon.

Your behavior is also part of the equation here. You're harming the DroptheT movement by being so abrasive and combative, and assuming the worst of people who are dipping their toes in your pond (so to speak.)

If you can't empathize with others at least understand that you never have the right to scorn and abuse them.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You’re entitled to your opinion. I happen to disagree with yours here. It’s not the first time. I agree with some things you say and disagree with others. That’s what I like about this place. That we can do that here and there’s not hard feelings on my end. I don’t think our differences of perspective or priority are harmful to my reasons for wanting LGB orgs to detach from gender ideology.

I try not to be dogmatic but every time I feel myself getting there I like to take a step back and get some perspective.

If you can't empathize with others

I empathize just fine with others, including the poster, but doesn’t mean I don’t think their projections are not harmful. I didn’t report their post or try to take away their right to speak, but I sure as hell want to convey with my limited time and energy resources why their perspective is inaccurate and harmful.

So no, my actions do not arise from a lack of empathy. In my life I surround myself with people with a diversity of experiences and viewpoints, some of whom I vehemently disagree with on some things. One of my closest friends is a TRA. She’s messaging me right now, in fact. I follow and read the work of a lot of radfems and gender critical feminists. I follow and am friends with conservatives, but I am not one. I’m pretty good on empathy and tolerance.

at least understand that you never have the right to scorn and abuse them.

Yea, that’s a weighty accusation. Could I have been more gentle in my delivery? Sure, but abusive? I don’t see it. Feel free to point out what you think arises to the level of abusive.

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

I'm pretty sure she's blocked me, but me and her have had several long arguments where she denies that these people exist and accuses me of hating all bi people for bringing it up.

(Also, you, I'm still planning on replying to your message, it's just hard to type it all out)

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm pretty sure she's blocked me, but me and her have had several long arguments where she denies that these people exist and accuses me of hating all bi people for bringing it up.

This is what I had in mind when I asked her, and I think she has fundamentally misjudged me and where my concern is coming from. I gathered she was very touchy about that and I know from that that she does not believe that there is a significant subset of bisexual people who call themselves gay or lesbian while knowing they are attracted to both sexes. I quite frankly do not understand the denial because there is abundant evidence that this is the case, many people openly admit to it, and we benefit from being able to recognize and respect differences and understand that words have consistent meanings when we use them and from our words being based on a common baseline understanding. By not recognizing this problem, the result is simultaneous bisexual and homosexual erasure here. So I think we all have a stake in this, especially because I would like there to be an actual community -- a social community and a community of understanding -- of lesbians, bisexuals, and gay men, and separately between lesbians and bisexual women, and separately for each of our individual groups. And I think we all need to be able to recognize and call out the bad actors/transgressors within and from our own communities or at least not jump on others who do, because we understand the nuanced issues at stake.

(Also, you, I'm still planning on replying to your message, it's just hard to type it all out)

No rush on that. Seriously.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's inexplicable. I think it's just a case of being overly defensive with little understanding of gay issues. Especially with that reaction to your suggestion of bi in denial (which I agree with); you were in no way claiming that bisexuality should be some "ugly, dirty secret", but it doesn't erase the fact that some bisexual and even homosexual people can be in denial for various reasons. Also, some bi and homosexual people may actually feel that their sexuality is an "ugly, dirty secret", but that's something we should work towards fixing, not project onto others and then get offended. I wholeheartedly agree with your point on words needing meaning and being defined collectively.

I think we all need to be able to recognize and call out the bad actors/transgressors within and from our own communities or at least not jump on others who do, because we understand the nuanced issues at stake.

Exactly. Bisexuals do that less than other groups, which is causing bis-in-denial to wreak havoc on everyone's understanding of sexual orientation. I just think that because most bi people can blend into another group, they just feel they don't have a dog in that race, but yet they still feel personally attacked when the fact that these people are bi is mentioned.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Thank you for saying I have a right to an opinion, a lot of people don't think that. I appreciate the respect, you obviously have that same right and can take or leave anything I say.

I have to ask, did I touch a nerve by accusing OP of being a bisexual in denial?

Obviously! You know you did! Acting like being bisexual is some ugly dirty secret that you've caught a usurper engaging in is offensive to say the least. Dumping disapprobation on someone because you think you've sniffed out a bisexual is abusive behavior. You don't get to define other people or order them to accept an unwanted identity. This is directly contributing to a problem you want to rectify- bisexuals pretending to be gay.

People don't remember what you say, they remember how you made them feel. That guy's deeper in the closet now!

You would absolutely lose your top if someone accused you of being a bisexual in denial, and I've gotten the impression that other lesbians sometimes do just by your fixation on the topic. This is where my empathy comment came from. Treat others the way you want to be treated. Write a comment that you could take reading about yourself.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Literally another bisexual on here said OP is most likely a closet bi. Why is this an issue for you? There's nothing wrong with being bi, and OP might not be aware of their biases as a result of being bi (not understanding/empathizing with monosexuals).

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm sick of being told I'm ignorant about a problem I'm well aware exists. I get it that there's a problem. You seem to think I'm disputing whether the OP on the other thread is bisexual, he appears to be, but he's also a stranger on the internet who is text on a screen.

You catch more flies with honey and attacking people gets you nowhere and exacerbates the problem. That's my point. Anger just drives people away, you have to make your point and let him figure out his end of the deal.

I also think it's ridiculous to heap vitriol on someone who's coming out of systematic brainwashing during their formative years and expecting them to instinctively understand the taboos of feminist lesbians. That conversation was an embarrassment to all of you.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 18 insightful - 4 fun18 insightful - 3 fun19 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

Sexuality is built around male objectification of women (or her substitute)---men doing the objectifying and women having to deal with it via a array of responses which include both acceptance and rejection. Sex is a political act--or how women are made inferior and how men achieve dominance.

This hottest of takes is by far the best one. Apparently gay men are substitutes for women, and that's why gay men have sex. Nothing about lesbians though. Everyone knows they don't have a reason to exist.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 17 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

they just overthink whats very basic.

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 12 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

People have too much time on their hands.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The curse of being over-analytical. We can twist things in pursuit of ideas that please us or dispel some anxiety but have no foundation in reality.

[–]usehername 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sexuality is built around male objectification of women (or her substitute)

To be fair, this is true of a lot of straight males. But OP clearly doesn't have an understanding of sexual orientation or arousal.

edit: OP mentioned the comphet essay. Explains a lot.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I was gonna go through and respond but it's just to crazy...all academics, no natural biological drive.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

all academics, no natural biological drive.

Perfect summary. Their idea of utopia sounds miserable.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

That is an impressive wall of text in the middle. I would give a kudo, but I'm permabanned🤐

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's simultaneously highly intelligent yet pretty nutty all at the same time.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Ooh, what did you do?

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lmao why?

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Wait seriously? Your replies over there are easily some of the best though, lol.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think I know who you're referring to, but that's a different person than me.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Huh... I must be blind. Could've sworn it was the same username, I'll have to take a look. Sorry!

[–]usehername 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sounds like OP is another closet bi. I put in my two cents.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Someone can just be wrong about something on the internet without being a nefarious person.

You never made mistakes, or misunderstood the world, especially when you were young?

Just politely explain why he's wrong and move on. That comment section was a mess!

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think the problem lies in the fact that if you hear something enough times, you start to believe it. Mantras like 'trans women are women' are proof of that. It's fine if one person makes a mistake, but if people keep repeating these mistakes because they've heard them enough times, the mistake becomes a fact, regardless of whether it's right or wrong. Things like people using sexual preferences/genital preferences rather than sexual orientation to describe sexuality.

[–]PatsyStoneMaverique 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think the problem lies in the fact that if you hear something enough times, you start to believe it.

I agree, that is a key component of most belief systems.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have said it before and I'll say it again: "GenderCritical" are those cringey ex-tumblerina feminists who yelled "omg transphobe" at every Tom, Dick and Harry and when they saw that the monster they created was coming to eat them they got radicalised. Actual GC feminists who were always critical of transmania are the ones who are loyal second-wave feminists from an older generation. Also, there is a significant presence of idiotic conservaturd Karens in GC circles. Their extreme misandry is honestly cringeworthy

[–]No_ 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

GC doesn’t think homosexuality is a choice..

That’s the TRAs who demand gays to choose to have sex with someone of the opposite sex.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From the comments:

So, there's a lot to unpack here, with what you're remarking. I think you definitely believe you're not a lesbian for political purposes

Good grief. Can we spell "condescending"... I don't know if I have the energy to get into this entire thread, but I appreciate you and the bunch of other familiar usernames I see over there standing up for us.