all 75 comments

[–][deleted] 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

To clarify: I have always considered pornography to be an issue for lesbian and female bisexuals. Even setting aside the rampant abuse and trafficking of women in the industry, lesbian porn depicts an unhealthy, unrealistic, fetishistic portrayal of lesbian sex and sexuality, and contributes to straight men's degrading attitudes towards us.

I have always thought gay male porn is immune to this, because if there's no women in it, what could be the harm right? And given that porn has historically been one of the few ways young gay and bi men could explore their sexuality, I never felt comfortable criticizing it. However, this post on tumblr by a gay man has me reconsidering this position.

Is pornography harmful to LGB sexuality and natural sexual orientation development, and should be considered an LGB issue? Interested in gay/bi men's thoughts on this.

[–]boypower 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

I can't say anything about the gay porn industry, obviously it's a toxic industry just like the rest of the porn industry, but I don't know enough to criticize it.

What I can say is that when gay/bi boys grow up and start exploring their interest in the same sex, the first thing we come across in our exploration is often gay porn. In no way whatsoever can that be considered a good starting point for any gay/bi youth. There's no gradual easing into one's sexuality, it's a lot of guilt, shame and confusion about who we are, and when we try to look for answers, we often than not come face to face with gay pornography and that can and will often have an effect on how we view intimacy between men and how we view our bodies that can often be destructive for the rest of our lives. While some kids might be lucky to have good parents, good education regarding gay sex and sexuality, and have a safe way to find and indulge in gay male media aimed at gay teens, most of us weren't that lucky. We get dropped straight into the world of homoerotica and pornography; no talking about same sex crushes with your pals, no putting up posters of boy band members or handsome actors, no reading gay teen literature, just a pretty steep drop into the world of gay pornography.

I'm obviously not saying that pornography immediately ruins the lives of gay youth and their perceptions of themselves, but regardless of what you think of the pornography industry, you can't honestly say that watching gay pornography is a good way for gay youth to explore their sexuality, especially when they might already feels confused, angry, sad, depressed, anxious, ashamed and guilty. So overall I'd say gay pornography is an issue for gay/bi teens specifically.

[–]grammaroo 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (13 children)

no it isnt. and you're being naive and honestly pretty fucking stupid. the ONLY access gay kids have to homosexuality is usually gay porn. it doesnt affect us THAT much but the alternative to that is high depression or suicide because other than gay porn, our alternative is church homophobia. you make it seem like we have some luxurious alternative. And gay porn slowly spreads throughout the internet, "activating" bisexuals as well. I dont exactly like gay porn but it's important to young gay kids being brainwashed by heterosexual porn and propaganda. Your comment is out of context and speaks so foolishly as if we have power and porn is a nuisance to our perfect imaginary way of reaching out to gay kids. We cant. So the porn stays.

[–]boypower 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

Good grief, I'm not trying to remove porn. I'm just saying that kids using pornography to explore their sexuality is not healthy at all, and that kids almost only having gay porn as a reference when they are trying to figure themselves out IS an issue as pornography does NOT paint a realistic picture on male intimacy. I'm not going on an anti-porn crusade but you are being completely deranged as if there's only two choices: gay porn or church homophobia.

[–][deleted]  (11 children)

[removed]

    [–]boypower 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I'm sorry but I'm SURE we can build a community around same sex attracted people without including acceptance of gay children and teens exclusively watching pornography to satisfy their exploration regarding their sexuality?

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

    I think both of you make good points here, honestly. Would it be safe to say that in addition to pornography, there should be more than just one way for gay/bi boys to explore their sexuality? I'm not sure what this would look like, however. The only thing I'm aware of is gay romance in young adult fiction and gay erotica that's written by gay male authors, but you kind of have to seek that out. Maybe sex ed, or LGB spaces for teenagers where other boys can meet each other? That would require the establishment of an LGB space for teenagers to begin with. High schools may or may not be a good place, depending on how conservative the area is, teenagers may not want to be outed by joining... if it's not in high school, it would be harder for kids to join is also a downside... and in either case, the parents would be aware and that could be a problem... I'm not sure. How do we outreach to LGB teenagers and create a space that's safe for them to socially connect and explore their sexuality in with other teenagers in the current homophobic climate? It's a difficult question.

    [–]boypower 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Well nobody said it'd be easy. I got a lot of help with just meeting gay people for the first time online on forums. That was really the start of my self-acceptance, to have direct contact with someone who was also gay and completely open about it. It cleared my minor gender dysphoria then and there as well. In terms of sexual exploration though, and not just coming into terms with being gay, obviously porn was there, but I also read non-explicit (as well as explicit) boys love manga and while that genre obviously has some big issues, it was nice to have a story, fully-realized male characters acting out a gay love story. Anime, video games, manga and cartoons also were very near and dear to my heart, and I've had an active imagination since I was a child, and eventually the male characters from different series started to appear in my fantasies, often not explicit but rather bigger stories with my own original male characters and whichever character I fancied that time. It sounds pretty lame but I still do it to this day and I'm 26!

    Overall I think cultivating creativity and imagination in gay teens and meeting other gay teens is generally the best way to include something other than just porn in ones sexual exploration. Obviously there's a lot more to it and a lot more to change (parenting, media, education...), but that's just my anecdote on how I dealt with my sexuality when I was a teen beyond looking at porn. I wouldn't say porn scarred me or anything, but I don't think it really helped me either to achieve anything except being wank material, and I do sometimes worry about my porn consumption habits to this day.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    thanks for the insight! yeah, yuri and shoujo-ai were very dear to me as a teenager too!! I always went on mangafox and read the non-explicit girls love things (the explicit stuff scared me, lol).

    yeah I think cultivating online LGB communities is important for this reason... in case if teenagers can't meet or connect IRL, they have somewhere to go to talk about issues and ask questions. I think online spaces is definitely a reasonable, tangible goal for LGB organizing to accomplish. and promoting gay male fiction creators as well.

    recently there was a scandal with a gay male YA author, Malulani Moreno, who wrote a book about a love story between two teenage boys, getting cancelled on twitter by the TQ for problematic tweets and thoughtcrimes, such as misgendering a "genderqueer" person and saying more male authors should write gay love stories instead of female authors. I thought that fiasco was depressing.

    [–]boypower 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I used mangafox actively as well! Ah the memories!

    The issue with LGB communities and spaces especially for young people is that they are going to be riddled with predators if they are not moderated well. LGB teens are often very vulnerable and that makes them targets for predators and we can see some of that happening in the current trans discourse where confused youth are being '' mentored '' and '' assisted '' by adult perverts.

    I met like, 2 gay guys, 2 bisexual guys and 1 lesbian in a forum for Japanese self-published indie video games and music. From there I progressed onto tumblr and the gays wouldn't stop popping up! Also met a group of gays who were all fed up with trans stuff on tumblr as well, after like 10 years of being there, and now we have a Discord. You don't necessarily need a LGB-specific site to meet other gays, most of my acquaintances I've just met through exploring the internet and it's various messaging boards that focus on my interests!

    I heard about that case, it was super fucked up how all the gendies and women ganged up on him. But Malulani should've waited until after his book was released to throw some deserved shots at gay male romance as a theme and a subject always being produced and made by women for other women. He shot himself in the foot honestly, even if his book being cancelled is absolutely ludicrous and he didn't deserve it in any way.

    [–]grammaroo 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    all your suggestions are great, but the problem is we never had access to gay and lesbian children since the common belief about homosexuality is that we recruit gay kids and not that theyre born gay. We HAD a way to reach them through schools but that was hijacked by the gender ideology assholes. Porn is problematic but and it being the best option shows how terrible our options are. We just hope they understand that it "activates" their homosexuality and theyre not too damaged by it. It's like playing with fire. It's bad but until we can find a better way, it's the only appropriate way. And just look at heterosexuals. They have trouble with it as well and theyre like 90% of earth. So if they cant even direct their own children properly then we have no proper chance either. But gay porn tends to sometimes be way, way better than straight porn or lesbian porn (directed by straight men).

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    What your saying makes sense to me.

    [–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void[M] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Express yourself in a civil manner (hint, not calling people names for having a different opinion is a good start) or you're getting banned. Again.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    And given that porn has historically been one of the few ways young gay and bi men could explore their sexuality,

    It is definitely one the of few ways, but not the only way. And gay men can do without the existence of porn. I found out I was gay in stages, but the one that confirmed it for me was watching a video of two men skydiving in tandem on YouTube. It was safe for YouTube, because obviously there was nothing sexual present in the video, but still, there was one man sitting on the lap of another man as they were getting strapped together. That turned me on. Plus, men have always been walking around shirtless or just in their swimming gear. Gay men have always existed and have always been dating and having sex with each other, even in societies where it is or was a criminal offence. We don’t need porn.

    This is an unpopular opinion on this sub, but I’m fine with prostitution if it is regulated, the prostitute knows that he or she can quit at any time and the tax revenue from it goes towards combating human trafficking. At least with prostitution the client is actively engaging with the prostitute and can learn about how he or she performs in the bed. Also, the act can be done in private. With porn, there is no privacy, because it’s recorded, so anyone with money or a VPN can see the sexual act take place. If a prostitute stopped being a prostitute, and never told anyone he or she knew about it, he or she can take it to the grave. A port actor does not have that luxury. And the end consumer gets off just by masturbating, and gets an unrealistic understanding of sex to top it all off. And porn in itself is prostitution. I don’t get why porn is legal nationwide in America and Ireland even though both countries ban private prostitution for this reason.

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don’t agree with your take on prostitution but I agree about the lives of porn actors being negatively affected by the inherent publicity of it. I know on OnlyFans there have been stories about young people like 18, 19, 20, both male and female, being doxxed with their explicit videos and that’s concerning.

    [–]latuspodSuper Straight 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I think porn is a society wide issue. The exploitation, violence, misogyny. I don't think there is anything healthy about porn.

    [–]dilsencySame-sex community 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't think it's an issue specifically for LGB people, it's mostly a misogyny issue.

    [–]ThrowMeAway2879 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I'll continue to consume porn I like, whenever I like. Baseless tumblr posts with anti-porn propaganda can scream into the void for all I care.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Following along, this is not something I'd thought about. Thank you for asking the question. Reading that broke my heart.

    [–]Preachy_Jerk 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

    The toxicity of the porn industry doesn't necessarily mean that consumption of any kind of erotica is inherently bad for human beings. Drug abuse, compulsive behavior, risk-taking, low self-esteem, depression - these are problems across society, and we don't have healthy, effective solutions for any of them.

    I know it's counterintuitive in a time with such easy access to audiovisual sexual stimuli to argue that sexual repression is part of the cause of these issues, but I absolutely believe it to be the case. For example, contrary to the author, I don't believe that 50% of men in gay porn are heterosexual. I think male bisexuality is not just real, but prevalent. The gay/straight binary upheld by gay ideology, wider society and this article is both inaccurate and repressive. Some men are homosexual, others are heterosexual; but bisexual men are living with a false belief that their attraction to men invalidates their attraction to women. If you like having sex with men, you are gay, and only pretending to like having sex with women. That's why many gay for pay guys doth protest too much when talking about sex with men as an unpleasant job - and then you see them rock-hard, leaking precum with a cock inside them.

    On a wider scale, think of all the sexual frustration young men experience that could be relieved by enjoying each other, like they have in other cultures - but they don't. It has to come out somewhere, so they watch porn, drink/do drugs/party, develop unhealthy attitudes toward women, get consumed by fetishes like AGP; there have been multiple incidents of mass murder where sexual frustration is cited by the perpetrator.

    TL;dr porn obsession is a symptom of unhealthy, untrue attitudes toward sexuality, not the cause.

    [–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

    The toxicity of the porn industry doesn't necessarily mean that consumption of any kind of erotica is inherently bad for human beings.

    https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/

    [–]Preachy_Jerk 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

    Yeah, that doesn't contradict what I said, any more than My 600-Pound Life demonstrates the benefits of anorexia.

    [–]usehername 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

    If you actually read the research, you'd see that even mild/moderate amounts of porn use have adverse effects.

    [–]Preachy_Jerk 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

    What exactly is your thesis? That any sexual stimuli outside narrow bounds (which?) is bad for people? Does the dong on the statue of David count? And you're certain, from controlled studies, that it's a causative relationship?

    Please, show me your best evidence.

    [–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

    Well they haven't done any studies on the effects of David's dong, but I'll let you know right away when they do. Pornography use has been shown to be harmful to the brain. Too much sexual activity has a similar effect. This is explained in the research.

    And you're certain, from controlled studies, that it's a causative relationship?

    I linked the studies.

    porn obsession is a symptom of unhealthy, untrue attitudes toward sexuality, not the cause

    The research I just provided shows that porn does cause unhealthy and untrue attitudes towards sexuality. I never said it isn't also a symptom, but it's a self-perpetuating cycle.

    If you are genuinely interested, I suggest you read the massive collection of research I linked. I have gone through all of it.

    [–]Preachy_Jerk 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

    Ok, so instead of you stating your position in a precise way (not "pornography use has been shown to be harmful to the brain") and providing evidence for it, I have to guess what it is and read eighty studies to find the evidence myself.

    That's not how you prove a point, but have a nice day.

    [–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Porn use (and sex addiction) causes hypofrontality (weakened willpower + hyper-reactivity to cues due to a dysfunctional prefrontal cortex). This is the most serious effect but there are others such as a dysfunctional stress system, desensitization, and decreased respect towards people you find sexually attractive and increased objectification of such people. Feel free to click the link, hit crtl+f, and type in any keywords to search for specific studies. If you were really interested, you'd just read it, but maybe that's too hard for you. Seems like you just want to argue for fun.

    [–]Preachy_Jerk 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

    I was hoping you were going to define "porn" and "use", at least, but I guess I was expecting too much from someone who actually thought the life expectancy of gay porn performers is 25 because a gay blog said it "seems" that way.

    [–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Do you really not know what "porn" or "porn use" are? The studies I linked (I see you still haven't bothered to read them) cover different kinds of porn from videos to magazines. They also cover masturbating to porn and simply watching without masturbating. Also I admit I was a little hasty on that life expectancy number there. On further investigation I could only find this: http://danielrjennings.org/TheAverageLifeExpectancyOfAPornStar.html Where the sample size is quite small. I can't find any more studies on the subject. Seems like someone doesn't want people to know. Porn is a huge industry that makes a ton of money. I still think that porn stars are more likely to die younger than the general population but I can't back that up other than the massive amounts of porn stars who die young.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    Yeah but preachy jerk drew a distinction between porn and other forms of erotica, and has repeated that many times. Even going so far as to ask you to define "porn" because it seems like to you, all erotica shouldn't be consumed, even if it isn't pornographic in nature. Are you saying that all forms of erotica are bad the same way porn is bad?

    [–]usehername 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Please clarify non-pornographic erotica. Like an erotic novel? To my knowledge, there hasn't been a study that showed that erotic novels have negative effects on people's brains/attitudes, so I don't know if it's bad but I don't consume them either way. However, porn videos, pornographic still images, and softcore still images of women like in Playboy magazines and the like (even when they aren't naked) are shown to have negative effects on cognitive function and attitudes towards women. There has not been a lot of research into gay porn/images of men, but I'd imagine there's a similar effect.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Yes. Erotic novels, audio recordings (things like moans only for example), certain kinds of art, etc, I consider to be non pornographic erotica.

    I agree with your other points. And I'm pretty sure preachy does too (hence the distinction drawn between porn and other erotica initially). I was just confused as to why you kept saying 'porn is bad' essentially when, from where I was looking, you and preachy both agreed on that.

    Preachy says porn is bad but that doesn't mean other forms of erotica are bad. You then say porn is bad. Preachy says that doesn't contradict what was said initially (the distinction between porn and other forms of sexual stimuli). You say porn is bad again. This continues with you repeating that porn is bad (which you both agree on). Reading through all of that left me thinking 'maybe she has some info on all sexual stimuli being bad, porn or otherwise.' So I asked out of confusion.

    [–]usehername 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    He says:

    porn obsession is a symptom of unhealthy, untrue attitudes toward sexuality, not the cause.

    It is a symptom, but is also a cause, especially for younger people. I think me and him weren't on the same page for that argument, but that was my point.

    [–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I agree I don’t think erotica is bad, in fact I think it could be a good thing. Erotic literature and art especially. But there’s something about video porn that accompanies sexual dysfunction where other erotica doesn’t. I’m not sure why, but the correlation is there.

    And I always assumed the straight guys who do gay porn are similar to closeted gay men who have sex with women, like the physical capability is there, but the desire and pleasure isnt. I am absolutely not at all an expert on male arousal though lol, or closeted bisexuality in men for that matter, so I could have no idea what I’m talking about lmfao

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    I don’t think pornography is ever going to go away. Too common, too accessible, and too easy to produce. As long as we have cameras, we will have porn. And before cameras, we had drawings. But porn should never be promoted. It is still harmful to society. And it is a sad state of affairs that porn is often the first exposure a lot of gay youths have to the gay community.

    While we can never truly eradicate pornography, we can mitigate the impact it has on society. We can enforce existing laws against human trafficking and give long prison sentences to human traffickers. We can set up charities to help porn actors quit the industry and help them get back on their feet. We can help people addicted to harmful drugs come off of these drugs, because a lot of actors in the industry get into it to pay for expensive drug habits. We can help people who owe a lot of money get out of debt, because a lot of adult actors owe a lot of money to mafia organisations, drug cartels, banks and loan sharks. We can rebuild strong and tightly-knit communities, which reduces the incentive to watch porn or work in porn. Gay charities can go back to focusing on actual gay and bisexual people and helping vulnerable members of our communities like teenagers and the elderly, so they won’t have to turn to porn to escape. These small steps will build up to move a lot of people away from pornography.

    [–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    All these suggestions sound really good. Reasonable and achievable. Thanks for the comment!!

    [–]JulienMayfair 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    I know a bit about the porn industry having lived in California and known a few people involved in it. It's not a nice business. One guy I knew had a job as a recruiter, which meant he would hang out in places frequented by young men who came to Hollywood looking to make it in show business. He would strike up conversations with them and then maneuver it around to mentioning ways they could make a little money. He eventually quit doing it because he said he felt too guilty at what he was getting them into.

    From another perspective, I think ubiquitous porn is having some negative effects on young gay men. I grew up before the internet when gay porn was buying a magazine in a bookstore or getting a videotape. So you were limited in how much of it you could consume. If you were young, it was hard to access it at all. Nowadays, look at all these kids on subreddits like AGB who think they have to shave themselves like porn actors or who think that porn sex is a way to be a good lover.

    [–]Preachy_Jerk 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Do you think that erotica that emphasized health, respect, discipline and self-development would necessarily be a negative influence? Maybe we're just doing it wrong.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I think that’s a reasonable take. There’s another comment on this thread about how porn isn’t going to go away and all we can do is mitigate the damaging effects and change the industry from the inside out. The industry is enormous though and the abusive culture is so interwoven I don’t even know how someone could go about changing it.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Those are good points. Porn wasn’t so bad when it was difficult to access and you had to pay for it. Now you can find it by typing it on a search bar on any internet device. This is why I don’t like the idea of minors owning smartphones.

    [–]theytookourjerbsXX only. 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I don't think it's just an LGB issue, but also a heterosexual. There's problems with porn and it's paedo like category "teen". Also the fake incest stuff too. I understand it's step and what not, which is not blood related, but it's weird af. 18-19 is still considered under a subtype of paedo, but the age of consent in some places are 16-17, and that's still a subtype of paedo, which is in the same subtype as 18-19 is in too. I also don't like how looking up something lesbian brings to lesbian porn aka straight of bi women screwing on camera for a straight male gaze.

    [–]grammaroo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    it isnt. it can be corrupt but hats just the industry, not porn. It's not like for the past 6000 years, women were oppressed because of porn. im not a marxist but this just reminds me of how they highlight structural issues with power. Im guessing from what i've seen on straight porn, straight men eroticize the master/slave dynamic and so do straight/bi women and get off on it. I doubt it's the porn doing this. theyre just masturbating to their desires but those desires change when structures change. Straight/bi women can be just as homophobic towards straight men and demand they play some sort of master role but when power dynamics change; women become doctors and lawyers and make more money, then those dynamics change as well.

    One dangerous "brainwashing" thing for gay kids though is the fem boy craze but again, porn didnt start it. It's gay teens and even preteens who are dealing with a large flood of bisexuals invading their spaces and them validating the most toxic, insecure parts of gay boys. The bisexual males are riddled with internalized homophobia to the point where theyre broken and defeated but desperately want to explore their attraction to the same sex but cant unless the gay boy is highly feminine. The gay boys ARE highly feminine but thats because of how they were brought up (homophobia) and turn into bimbos and obsess over the bisexuals because no gay person would even interact with the strange creatures they've become. so theyre used, exploited, abused and gay males arent allowed to put it out there in their culture to stay away from bisexuals because of the extreme social pressure to marry the opposite sex and these gay boys are so clueless to think the bisexual males have an actual interest in them outside of a kink/fetish. They then end up "learning" through experience and ruin 5 years of their lives doing this and growing up bitter learning it's a fetish. i dont think porn would be the cause of this. and being "anti porn" is just a radical feminist" issue because they have severely misguided beliefs as to what causes misogyny (the gender binary does and they love participating in that as well)

    [–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

    honestly I don't agree with a lot of radical feminism, but I always under the impression they viewed pornography as a symptom of misogyny rather than a cause(?). idk it's been a while since I've read any radfem literature. but regardless, that's an interesting point about the femboy thing.

    [–]grammaroo 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

    i browse ovarit and read almost every single comment on every single post. The dynamic is very interesting. They use lesbians as tokens to cry over but they always diminish the homophobia and downvote lesbians everytime they mention that as being the primary issue in some cases. So you can see the tensions there, the invidious comments, subtle homophobia and asking lesbians to "get along". As a gay male, i genuinely thought radical feminism was a lesbian thing but im starting to see that a lot of these lesbians are incredibly delusional and it's watching them figure out their homosexuality is an issue for them, especially if it somehow advances homosexual male rights as well. They try to paint an image of lesbians as super man hating beasts and greatly benefit by making lesbians the face of radical feminism to take all the scapegoating and punishment, then behind the scenes, they downvote, bully and gaslight the lesbians when they speak about homophobia.

    [–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Never been on Ovarit, but the radfems I’ve encountered on tumblr can be quite homophobic at times, so that doesn’t surprise me.

    [–]grammaroo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    i still dont get their homophobia. is it towards lesbians? they love using them as tokens.

    [–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Not surprised that the men are also treated horribly. Porn is terrible for the brain anyway. https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/relevant-research-and-articles-about-the-studies/

    [–]pacsatonifil 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I don’t think it’s a G issue but I always hear it is an issue for the L.

    Personally gay porn to me was a positive experience. Just seeing two men not just having sex but being filmed having sex. Two men kissing, having sex and not being ashamed was powerful for me.

    Now people just record each other and before only fans there was no money involved. I’m all for it being regulated and I like the ones that have the guys talk after the scenes are filmed just being regular people

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    interesting, thanks! i'm glad to hear your experience was way better than the tumblr OP, lol.

    [–]LizardDad 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I feel like it’s historically been more of a misogyny issue that’s fed in part by gay porn, through ad revenue and sales. Now with Mindgeek owning some of the biggest porn production companies, gay and straight alike, as well as the streamers like pornhub, virtually all porn is part of the problem, though straight porn will always be more skeevy, but it’s all one interconnected incestuous web.

    And that’s not touching the psychological impact. I’ve been with too many men and spoken to too many men who weren’t able to get off without the presence of porn to think it’s not part of a larger phenomenon, myself included but it’s gotten better with decreased usage. I shudder to think of what it’s doing to the minds of children and young people who watch it and have easy access to really frankly eroticized violence on video.

    [–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    yeah, i do share that concern too, lots of horror stories from r/nofap say it started when they were really young boys.

    [–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I think porn is an 'everyone' issue. It affects different groups in different ways even though there may be some overlap between demographics. But, I do think it would be helpful to tackle each issue independently where it's appropriate, depending on what is being discussed.

    For example, I think this guy's post should be tackled as a gay men's issue due to the various ways in which porn affects gay men specifically. And his post was largely a discussion about the hypocrisy of some gay men who oppose women's exploitation in porn while continuing to support the industry with their consumption.

    Similarly, the specifically misogynistic exploitation of lesbians and bi women in porn is a lesbian and bi women's issue.

    If the discussion is about porn addiction then that's mainly a straight men's issue because porn addiction is mainly a straight male problem (even though obviously anyone can be addicted to porn).

    But obviously these things are connected, and when the discussion is about the ways in which porn affects all of society then we can tackle it as a societal issue.