Gay MenAGB user goes on a date with a trans man, but learns the hard way that progressiveness has little to do with reality

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[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

Just because many females "pass as males", doesn't make them male, and just because many males "pass as females", doesn't make them female. It's sexist of you to define male and female by outward appearance, e.g. clothes, make up and surgery.

I never said that passing as female/male should mean being a female/male. That would be crazy.

I merely say that we can do as much as to accept them as women and men in everyday life.

The females will demand gay men date them because they are "he"s, the males will demand lesbians suck their "feminine girly dicks" because they are "she"s too.

That's why we need to fight for keeping the definitions of sexual orientations strictly about sex, not gender.

Stop being a transphobe and include us in the spaces of the opposite sex too!".

And that's the other problem we need to solve – so it's okay to have spaces based on biological sex. And also sports. That shit needs to get done.

I know it would be easier for us to just not accept them as men and women, but I personally don't want that easy solution. Trans people do their best to fit in society and live their lives as comfortably as possible. I can respect that. I won't let them take away my rights over it, but I don't want to take their rights either. Compromise is the key.

And sure, some are attention seeking autists or opportunists = fuck them. But I can't look at Blaire White who has been nothing but supportive to LGB and call her a man. She's done nothing to me and it would perhaps hurt her. Why?

I will never ask anyone to bend to their toxic ideas; I just ask to call them men and women, accordingly – and no, I'm not asking you to humor the "tree" insane lunatics or any other nonsense. Doing this much is usually enough to not be seen as a transphobe in the eyes of rational people and it should keep you safe from a ban.

People such as yourself going along with their preferred pronouns are why we are at this stage. You're no different than those TRAs you despise for limiting your rights and freedoms. You play by their rules. You play in their game. Wake up.

I'm willingly taking fire from both sides over my current position, trust me, I'm pretty conscious. Woke crowds are insanely powerful at spilling bullshit right now, but I'm tired of pretending that I don't see actual transphobia and I don't want to be associated with that. I want LGB movement, not anti-trans one.

[–]CuteAsDuck 32 insightful - 3 fun32 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

I won't let them take away my rights over it, but I don't want to take their rights either. Compromise is the key.

Womanhood and manhood are not rights one can be given or taken from. One is either a man or a woman. No amount of compromise, surgery, crossdressing, and hormones will change that. By calling a man a woman, or a woman a man, you reduce womanhood and manhood to feelings, clothes, and artificial appearances gained from surgery. Excuse you, but a woman is not a dress, wig, etc. It's not a legal document. It's not me feeling today I'm a woman. Stop with this sexism.

I merely say that we can do as much as to accept them as women and men in everyday life.

And that's how we got to this mess. You demand people call a man a woman, and a woman a man. How would you stop a man who believes he is a woman from getting in and invading the spaces of women?

"Miss, ma'am, I accept you are a woman, but you can't use women's bathrooms, sports and changing rooms"? That's all you can tell them, and they will simply call you a "transphobe" over it and demand to be treated as women, the same way you accept them as women. You respect the T more than you do women and gay people though, as tras do, so color me surprised.

I will never ask anyone to bend to their toxic ideas; I just ask to call them men and women, accordingly

If you really don't want to ask people to bend to their toxic ideas, then stop asking people to call a man a woman, and a woman a man. That would be a good start.

I'm willingly taking fire from both sides over my current position, trust me, I'm pretty conscious.

You're not conscious enough apparently.

but I'm tired of pretending that I don't see actual transphobia

You are still too woke that your brain fell out. Calling a man a man, and a woman a woman is not "transphobia".

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Womanhood and manhood are not rights one can be given or taken from. One is either a man or a woman. No amount of compromise, surgery, crossdressing, and hormones will change that.

In the current academic discourse, sex is separated from gender. Sex is the impossible to change base, while gender can be adjusted. Please, don't tell me that "X is X", as we're not discussing solid rock, but abstract concepts established by humans, which exist only thanks to us. They are whatever we make them to be and the true problem is considering whether we should change something or not.

By calling a man a woman, or a woman a man, you reduce womanhood and manhood to feelings, clothes, and artificial appearances gained from surgery. Excuse you, but a woman is not a dress, wig, etc. It's not a legal document. It's not me feeling today I'm a woman. Stop with this sexism.

No. Realistically saying, you're romanticizing the idea of humanity. In reality, we're just bags of meat controlling a skeleton covered in flesh, which can die by slipping on something on a random trip to toilet.

We're not talking about some incredibly powerful foreign force that wants to redefine what you understand as your female or male view of the world. We're talking about 0.3% of population who feel like they were born in body of wrong sex and want to live a difficult life of pretending that isn't the case.

And that's how we got to this mess.

It is what it is, then. No one promised it will be easy. We have to stay vigilant to make sure it doesn't go further.

You demand people call a man a woman, and a woman a man.

I don't demand anything. I merely ask, as I think it's a decent thing to do, in realistic situation when someone actually pass as the other sex. If some attention starved teenage girl says on her bio on Twitter that she's a boy now, but makes no effort to look like one and she cries how the world is transphobic to her, that's delusional and childish. But if someone makes an effort and looks like a woman, to get out of your way and call them a "man" just because you happen to know their biolgocial sex is an asshole move.

"Miss, ma'am, I accept you are a woman, but you can't use women's bathrooms, sports and changing rooms"? That's all you can tell them, and they will simply call you a "transphobe" over it and demand to be treated as women, the same way you accept them as women. You respect the T more than you do women and gay people though, as tras do, so color me surprised.

That's the source of error in your view. This is not a competition. Everyone deserves the same amount of respect. There is no choosing sides. We're all stuck living in this mess and we can either have endless wars or solve our problems with discussion.

But silencing people with censorship (something they do) is no way to acheive this, just like misgendering them (something you do) is not.

If you really don't want to ask people to bend to their toxic ideas, then stop asking people to call a man a woman, and a woman a man. That would be a good start.

Sorry, not gonna happen. I want to secure the future of LGB movement and it won't be possible if it will be deemed as hateful but rational people who are currently neutral in this discussion. Seeing your rhetoric, I can't objectively deny the reality that you're not being hateful. You're acting just like these woke TRAs: you want something to be your way OR ELSE. Well, you both need to understand that reality doesn't work like that.

You're not conscious enough apparently.

I am. Stop seeing the world as black and white, champ.

You are still too woke that your brain fell out. Calling a man a man, and a woman a woman is not "transphobia".

It is and better consider if you want to have a LGB community or not, because the majority will never support us if you act like this. Grow up.

[–]CuteAsDuck 20 insightful - 3 fun20 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

but abstract concepts established by humans

"Gender" has been used to oppress women and gay people throughout human history. It is in fact a human construct, which shouldn't have existed in the first place. The only reason it came to exist unfortunately is misogyny and homophobia. Men who were attracted to men were seen as a "third gender", neither man nor woman, or somewhere in between, in multiple cultures (they might still be viewed that way in present cultures). Women were seen as inferior beings who were told to play with dolls, wear dresses, stay submissive, etc, and if they refused they would be seen as "not real women", or "not women". You're separating man and woman from their sex-based definitions, and reducing them to behaviour, clothes, artificial appearances, and feelings. You have admitted the "trans" movement (or more specifically, the "gender identity" movement) is nothing but a regressive movement that reinforces "gender" roles, and sexism. Reinforcing "gender" which is oppressive. There is no way this movement along with those who support it get any "respect" from me.

No. Realistically saying, you're romanticizing the idea of humanity. In reality, we're just bags of meat controlling a skeleton covered in flesh, which can die by slipping on something on a random trip to toilet.

We're not talking about some incredibly powerful foreign force that wants to redefine what you understand as your female or male view of the world. We're talking about 0.3% of population who feel like they were born in body of wrong sex and want to live a difficult life of pretending that isn't the case.

Realistically speaking, that 0.3% of the population is a bunch of bags of meat controlling a skeleton covered in flesh as well. But you care about one group of bags of meat more than you do about other groups of bags of meat. Sounds like a nihilist that refuses to accept their double standard and only uses nihilism in the form of "you're nothing but a bag of meat" when it's convenient for them. Or perhaps, you are not a nihilist at all. You may be someone using nihilism without knowing what it really is about to your own advantage in this discourse. Either way, cowardly move you did there.

Either care about the voices of us women (or as you call, bags of meat) that tell you not to reduce womanhood and manhood to artificial appearances, clothes, etc. Or get out of here with your "bag of meat" nonsense.

I don't demand anything. I merely ask, as I think it's a decent thing to do, in realistic situation when someone actually pass as the other sex. If some attention starved teenage girl says on her bio on Twitter that she's a boy now, but makes no effort to look like one and she cries how the world is transphobic to her, that's delusional and childish. But if someone makes an effort and looks like a woman, to get out of your way and call them a "man" just because you happen to know their biolgocial sex is an asshole move.

It is an "assholish" move to ask people to lie to themselves and others. When you ask someone to call a woman a man or a man a woman just because they "pass as a man/woman", have "crossdressed", undergone surgery, etc, you are asking them to lie. Not only to themselves, but to others, including the people who think they are "trans" or some "gender identity".

Lying is immoral in my view. So expect backlash when you're asking for such a thing.

I would also like to add, there is no such a thing as "being born in the wrong sex". I am not religious, and so "born in the wrong body/sex" makes no sense without a "soul" being inserted somewhere. You are your body. Everyone is. At no point did someone wake up and see themselves being thrown in a "wrong" body. They might not like the body they have, just like someone with anorexia does not like their body and weight. But we don't treat anorexia by telling the anorexics they are fat and should go on a diet, or that they are "in the wrong body", "assigned average x weight at birth" and should get surgery. We don't treat anorexia by accepting anorexics as "fat" and "ugly" that they believe they are. Lying to them that they are fat as they feel they are would be the "assholish" move.

Similarly, we should not treat men who believe they are women, and women who believe they are men, by giving them hormones, and surgery, or accepting them as the opposite sex with or without them "passing as" the opposite sex. That's the "assholish" move that nobody does with any other "mental illness".

But silencing people with censorship (something they do) is no way to acheive this, just like misgendering them (something you do) is not.

You want to shame and censor people for "misgendering" someone. But then claim censoring is not the way to go about this. So much contradiction in one sentence. I wonder how you get through the day like this.

I want to secure the future of LGB movement

Ah, the hero complex. Please don't bother securing our future, you're not a good role model.

Seeing your rhetoric, I can't objectively deny the reality that you're not being hateful.

You're asking people to deny the reality that sex can not change, that there is no such thing as "gender identity" and that no matter how much effort someone puts into trying to look like one sex, they will never be that sex and should not be treated as that sex. Do not refer to objective reality when you want people to deny it in the first place because "uwu, transphobia!", "uwu, hate!!".

It is and better consider if you want to have a LGB community or not, because the majority will never support us if you act like this. Grow up.

You are not in reality. The acceptance of LGB has declined, because of the T. The majority of people refuse to accept a man in dress as a woman or a woman with cut breasts a man.

How about you grow up and accept reality for what it is.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

"Gender" has been used to oppress women and gay people throughout human history. It is in fact a human construct, which shouldn't have existed in the first place. The only reason it came to exist unfortunately is misogyny and homophobia. Men who were attracted to men were seen as a "third gender", neither man nor woman, or somewhere in between, in multiple cultures (they might still be viewed that way in present cultures). Women were seen as inferior beings who were told to play with dolls, wear dresses, stay submissive, etc, and if they refused they would be seen as "not real women", or "not women".

Great, so that's history. Let's make sure to never repeat that.

You're separating man and woman from their sex-based definitions, and reducing them to behaviour, clothes, artificial appearances, and feelings.

Let's begin with the fact, that from my point of view, there is nothing to reduce. I see you tend to glorify these concepts, but to me, sex and sexual orientations are very base and simple – that's why they can't be messed with.

Gender is more complicated and I don't disagree that it can exist free from bonds to sex. Every aspect can be modified.

Realistically speaking, that 0.3% of the population is a bunch of bags of meat controlling a skeleton covered in flesh as well.

And that's exactly what they are!

But you care about one group of bags of meat more than you do about other groups of bags of meat.

Not at all. Trans people want to pass as their desired gender. Lesbians want to be free to date whoever they want, without being told to accept dicks. I recognize both of these claims and fully respect them. Once again, it's not a competition. Please, stop with this "daddy loves me the best".

Either care about the voices of us women (or as you call, bags of meat) that tell you not to reduce womanhood and manhood to artificial appearances, clothes, etc. Or get out of here with your "bag of meat" nonsense.

Oh please, don't pull a hurt feminist card on me now, like some woke leftie "literally shaking" that cries on Twitter. You're just as much a bag of meat as I am.

And no, I won't choose you over trans people, just because you're forcing me to. You and them exist in the same world, so grow up and coexist.

It is an "assholish" move to ask people to lie to themselves and others.

Maybe that's the source of your problem, champ. I don't believe they're lying at all. I think it is possible for someone to be born in body of wrong sex.

So expect backlash when you're asking for such a thing.

I don't care about your backlash. "Reality doesn't care about your feelings" works both ways, champ.

You want to shame and censor people for "misgendering" someone.

Prove me ever wanting that.

But then claim censoring is not the way to go about this. So much contradiction in one sentence. I wonder how you get through the day like this.

There's no contradcition, just you having trouble with reading comprehension and filling blanks with your bold assumptions.

Ah, the hero complex. Please don't bother securing our future, you're not a good role model.

Please, stop playing the gate keeper role. You're nobody, just like I am nobody. But I don't happen to randomly dismiss groups of people, so I will always have better chances to be heard than you, labeled as hateful person.

You're asking people to deny the reality that sex can not change [...] no matter how much effort someone puts into trying to look like one sex, they will never be that sex.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that, champ, and you know it. I expected better, but I see that bad apples are on both sides of spectrum, huh?

there is no such thing as "gender identity"

Of course there is such a thing, it's an abstract concept to begin with, for it to exist I need nothing but my imagination.

The acceptance of LGB has declined, because of the T.

No. The acceptance of LGB declined because of the trans rights activists. You're bold to assume 0.3% of population could be this active on the internet.

If you want to lynch entire minority for something "cis" straights did, I can only feel sorry for your limited mind.

How about you grow up and accept reality for what it is.

I always do, champ... It's my curse.

[–]CuteAsDuck 18 insightful - 2 fun18 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Great, so that's history. Let's make sure to never repeat that.

"Gender" is oppressive, so history will repeat itself once you define man and woman based on "gender".

Oh please, don't pull a hurt feminist card on me now, like some woke leftie "literally shaking" that cries on Twitter. You're just as much a bag of meat as I am.

Just because I want women's voices to be heard, it's "feminism" and "feminism is bad uwu". Interesting take.

Maybe that's the source of your problem, champ. I don't believe they're lying at all. I think it is possible for someone to be born in body of wrong sex.

That's not realistically possible. For someone who knows humans are "mere bags of meat", you sound religious. Stop asking people to call a woman a man or a man a woman because you believe that "a woman can be born in a man's body" and "a man can be born in a woman's body". You're shoving your religious nonsense down other people's throat.

I don't care about your backlash. "Reality doesn't care about your feelings" works both ways, champ.

Claiming that a woman can be born in a "man's body" and a man can be born in a "woman's body", or that as long as a woman or a man "passes" as a man or a woman respectively, then they should be treated as a man or a woman, is not realistic, "champ". So "reality doesn't care about feelings" is on my side, not yours, and doesn't go both ways. Your "stance" relies on mere feelings. Which facts don't care about.

No. The acceptance of LGB declined because of the trans rights activists. You're bold to assume 0.3% of population could be this active on the internet.

The trans right activists did not pop out of nowhere. They took the beliefs of the 0.3% of the population and have been vocal about them.

In any case, most people refuse to accept a woman as a man or a man as a woman, which the 0.3% of the population want, hence the decline in acceptance of LGB people.

I always do, champ... It's my curse.

You have not grown up mentally.

[–]lazy-summer-godSuper Gay[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Just because I want women's voices to be heard, it's "feminism" and "feminism is bad uwu". Interesting take.

That's not what I was even referring to...

You've made it sound like I called "bags of meat" women specifically. Just shows how you like to pull things out of context. And dirty tactics like that show that you have no substance in your views, just hate.

That's not realistically possible.

That's a bold claim. Prove it, please. I can't wait to see your mind penetrating machine.

For someone who knows humans are "mere bags of meat", you sound religious. Stop asking people to call a woman a man or a man a woman because you believe that "a woman can be born in a man's body" and "a man can be born in a woman's body". You're shoving your religious nonsense down other people's throat.

... Uhhh... yeah, that certainly serves as proof that you shouldn't make assumptions about people. You're pretty bad at it.

Claiming that a woman can be born in a "man's body" and a man can be born in a "woman's body", or that as long as a woman or a man "passes" as a man or a woman respectively, then they should be treated as a man or a woman, is not realistic, "champ".

It absolutely is, given they have a good reason (and they do), champ.

So "reality doesn't care about feelings" is on my side, not yours, and doesn't go both ways. Your "stance" relies on mere feelings. Which facts don't care about.

I assure you that reality is complicated enough to not be on side of either of us. According to Plato, we can only try to reach the truth, but it will never be given to us.

The trans right activists did not pop out of nowhere. They took the beliefs of the 0.3% of the population and have been vocal about them.

Well, that's just a blatant lie. TRAs don't give a shit about trans issues or their views. They use them as fuel for their own political gains. That's why they're busy "solving" non-existing problems like acceptance for tree pronounces.

You have not grown up mentally.

Uh oh, argumentum ad personam, so edgy.

I'm tired of this mindless discussion. How about you proceed to laughing at trans people, while I tend to more interesting things.

[–]CuteAsDuck 8 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Sigh, https://imgur.com/vND88UE