Milo takes on Blaire White?

submitted by our_team_is_winning from self.LGBDropTheT

Not sure if this is a shade war between two self-loathing gay men or what. You tell me. But I know Milo has never been on Team Trans.

https://imgur.com/a/daDa6Uv

Edit: Ah, I see. Blaire made a new video about Milo.

https://youtu.be/-7MBqgmhiVM

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[–]markiemarcus 33 insightful - 5 fun33 insightful - 4 fun34 insightful - 5 fun -  (25 children)

I didn't cackle at all. I have no qualms with the Blaire Whites of the world. Never have, never will. Her (and yes I have no difficulty with her in this context) approach to transition has been responsible and well-considered. To be on the side of M.Y., purely because of an anti-trans stance, when the whole shebang is a stunt to promote actual conversion therapy of gay men and lesbian women, is misguided at best and fucking psychotic at worst. At that point you've become the bastard IMO.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Agreed. If they all were like Blaire we wouldn't be in this mess of a timeline. I like her a lot.

[–]Kai_Decadence 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nah Blaire White may not be as disruptive as someone like Riley J Dennis but he's still on some bullshit himself thinking that looking like a blowuup doll bimbo = being a woman which is nonsense. The fact that he doesn't like being referred to as a man really speaks about where his head is at with his own self-internalized homophobia and as non-conforming feminine presenting gay man myself, I don't give him a pass neither and as far as I'm concerned, he's just as ridiculous as the Riley Dennis' and Kat Blaque's, all delusional men who think they are women for arbitrary reasons.

And considering how Blaire is a gay man, of course the mess of a timeline you're talking about was gonna happen because we gay men are a small percentage of the population.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Blair does not say nor think they are a woman. They regularly say in their videos 'im a man and im doing this to try and cope with crippling dysphoria". They also say if you are a man attracked to a transwoman you aren't straight. Meanwhile Dennis calls himself a lesbian and talks about genetal preferences and how they are transphobic... Big fucking difference mate

[–]Kai_Decadence 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Blair does not say nor think they are a woman

Wrong. He says he's a "Trans woman", "Trans woman" implying that it's a style/class/"different kind" of woman. If he were living with any kind of integrity and self-respect, he wouldn't be calling himself "Trans woman), he would just be calling himself what he really is, a feminine/effeminate gay MAN and so long as he keeps calling himself that, he's really just in the same camp as the other delusional men who call themselves "Trans women".

If he simply called himself a "Transvestite" , hell if he called himself a "trans-identified man", I wouldn't have much issue because at the very least, those terms don't infer "woman" in the title but he doesn't do that so no. Sorry, that's just the blunt truth and Blaire saying he's born male doesn't mean much when he doesn't call himself a man and keeps calling himself a "trans woman). He's just not an annoying TRA.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A transvestite is a crossdresser, they dont have dysphoria the mental illnes they have a kink its a big difference. Why would Blair call themselves that?

You want to be pissed about go right ahead but I dissagree.

[–]Kai_Decadence 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

He wouldn't have to call himself specifically "Transvestite", I also said "trans-identified man"). And what Blaire is doing is essentially crossdressing if we really were to get down to it. Personally I don't like the word "Crossdresser" because it implies sexual kink and not every man who dresses femininely does it for a sexual kink or fetish but if we're just talking about men wearing "women's clothes", then yeah that's what Blaire is doing.

And I'm not pissed, I just think Blaire is just as ridiculous using "woman" anything to refer to himself and while he may not be an annoying, screeching TRA type, he still is delusional and I can see what he's trying to do with his "Not like other Trans" shtick.

[–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

edit: I've gotten some comments saying "Blaire doesn't believe that you can actually change sexes." Yes, I know that; what I am saying is, the "truscum" version of transgender ideology still requires people to pretend that someone can change sexes, and/or that you can be "a man in a woman's brain" or "a woman in a man's brain," by requiring society to use different pronouns for a person than that person's biological sex. Hope that wording helps clear up any misinterpretation.

To be on the side of M.Y., purely because of an anti-trans stance, when the whole shebang is a stunt to promote actual conversion therapy

Let's be clear about what's going on here:

  • Milo is promoting conservatives' version of gay conversion therapy-- so-called "ex-gay"

  • Blaire is promoting liberals' version of gay conversion therapy-- so-called "transitioning"

It is impossible to change one's sexual orientation. This is the lie told in Milo's conversion therapy.

It is impossible to change one's biological sex. This is the lie told in Blaire's conversion therapy.

I have sympathy for each and I believe in the rights of each to do what is best for them individually.

However, both Milo and Blaire are promoting conversion therapy, and for me personally, I have dealt with homophobia from both conservatives and liberals, shaming me about what I am. Both forms of conversion therapy sicken me and both have the end result of erasing homosexuality/bisexuality.

[–]markiemarcus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

That's not clear at all IMO. It avoids the elephant in the room; suffering from dysphoria, a very real phenomenon. I've never heard Blaire say that one can change their sex either.

My concerns are primarily around self ID, informed consent and, like you, over diagnosis from external pressure (read conversion therapy). Though I think trans identified gay & lesbian is something else entirely and best viewed with skepticism; these people are demonstrably heterosexual.

Assuming informed consent can be given and a persistent, robust diagnosis of dysphoria exists, the path forward is really not my concern and I wish them good luck.

It's just not a decision a kid can make, at all, especially when the dysphoria so frequently subsides following puberty. The numbers are crazy high; typically north of 50% in every study I've read.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

That's not clear at all IMO. It avoids the elephant in the room; suffering from dysphoria, a very real phenomenon.

I didn't mention gender dysphoria in my post but it is true that gender dysphoria exists and is a real issue-- and that the very idea of "transitioning sexes" (something that is not possible) was born out of homophobia and is used to chemically castrate LGB people.

While we're talking gender dysphoria-- we want to find solutions that actually help people, right? Because there isn't conclusive evidence that "transitioning" helps. Especially among the ROGD transgender children, but even among adults!

I believe that an adult who is capable of consenting ought to have the right to undergo the route of "transitioning" if they so desire, the same as I believe anyone has the right to pursue any other type of alternative medication even though it does not have scientific backing.

and, like you, over diagnosis from external pressure (read conversion therapy).

Gotcha. But, I think it is conversion therapy if someone is forced into it (e.g. by a parent or peers) AND if someone chooses to undergo it... it is still conversion therapy either way. Even though a consenting adult has the right to undergo it (e.g. I don't like that some gay people seek out religious conversion therapy or transgender conversion therapy, and it won't work, but I recognize their right to do it).

Though I think trans identified gay & lesbian is something else entirely and best viewed with skepticism; these people are demonstrably heterosexual.

Agreed.

It's just not a decision a kid can make, at all, especially when the dysphoria so frequently subsides following puberty.

Agreed.

[–]slushpilot 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

it is true that gender dysphoria exists and is a real issue

It exists, but I also wonder how much of it is a "real issue". I suspect the current surge is often wrongly attributed because of increased anxiety among youth, and simply self-diagnosed / self-identified as such—which a therapist is now expected to "affirm".

So I wouldn't simply agree that it's a "real issue"—but it is complex.

Some teenagers/young adults that I know are afraid of picking up the phone to make an appointment or introduce themselves & ask people for what they need. Whatever underlies that kind of insecurity & anxiety is likely related to the cause of things like ROGD...

Since smartphones & social media, it's the first generation that's been able to avoid navigating in-person interactions & develop a social identity disconnected from physical reality. Then, add some insane ideas from the internet and puberty into the mix—and are we really surprised?

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It exists, but I also wonder how much of it is a "real issue". I suspect the current surge is often wrongly attributed because of increased anxiety among youth, and simply self-diagnosed / self-identified as such—which a therapist is now expected to "affirm".

Totally agree! I was mostly thinking of LGB people when I said that, since I've seen so many "cis" LGB people say they've had experiences with it. But you're right.

Some teenagers/young adults that I know are afraid of picking up the phone to make an appointment or introduce themselves & ask people for what they need. Whatever underlies that kind of insecurity & anxiety is likely related to the cause of things like ROGD...

Yup, I know a lot of people my age like that.

[–]markiemarcus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Oh I totally agree on the evidence (or lack thereof) with regards to quality of life post transition. That's troubling. On aggregate it seems to be a wash. There are a few ways of reading that; that it doesn't really help anybody, or that it really helps as many as it really harms. All the more reason for insisting upon informed consent...which makes one a heretic these days.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Gotcha, makes sense. Yeah, I sure feel like a heretic some days, lol. The lack of transparency regarding the transgender movement is astounding.

[–]markiemarcus 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh it's crazy isn't it? Especially with regards to the medical side. I can't think of any other circumstances where it would be deemed "progressive" to be so extremely reckless and spit on informed consent. They've been handing out puberty blockers like candy under the guise of them being a totally safe and reversible "pause button". That's just a lie; we know exactly what Lupron does.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I've never heard Blaire say that one can change their sex either.

I haven't either. I've watched a lot of her videos. I don't want to point to a specific one but I'm pretty sure she's said they can't. That's where I would place my bet, certainly.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It is impossible to change one's biological sex. This is the lie told in Blaire's conversion therapy.

/u/reluctant_commenter This is not at all what she espouses. She clearly states she's biologically male, etc. On that topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyzZ3J6IG6s

On menstruation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7CRubwB32E

I'm actually not sure why this stark mischaracterization of her stance keeps going around but it's not true.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Heyo-- I responded to Ice-Kagen about this and added an edit to my earlier comment.

I think my wording might've been confusing. I am aware that Blaire does not believe that he is female. When I say "Blaire's conversion therapy" I am referring to transmedicalist transgender beliefs as being like conversion therapy (even if Blaire is not intending to have that sort of harmful effect). Here is what I mean:

  • Transmedicalist transgender beliefs frame "transitioning", i.e. pretending to be a member of the opposite sex, as a solution to the problem of gender dysphoria.

  • Blaire believes in the transmedicalist version transgender ideology.

  • Every individual has idosyncracies about their beliefs. Blaire acknowledges reality by being open about the fact that he is male; BUT his beliefs require him to pressure others to call him "she"-- which is a lie because he is male not female, and pronouns are used on the basis of sex.

Does that make more sense? While Blaire acknowledges that he is male, he nonetheless believes that someone is a "bigot" if they misgender a trans-identified person, and that it is society's burden to keep up the false pretence by using the "correct" pronouns. I don't believe that acknowledging reality is an act of bigotry and it troubles me that it is being framed as such.

I say all this and simultaneously, I am kind of a begrudging Blaire fan, lol. I think he's funny and often insightful, and can bring a nuanced discussion to a topic sorely lacking it. However, he still believes in an ideology that is fundamentally homophobic and reality-denying, even if he is open about it being reality-denying!

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

he nonetheless believes that someone is a "bigot" if they misgender a trans-identified person

(Thank you for elaborating. However, the opposite of the above statement also appears to be true. Video linked below.)

Evidently medical transition is actually helpful for some. I do not begrudge them that. They are not forcing themselves on anyone else so I can't call that an ideology; it's a personal choice.

I've known transsexual people for a couple of decades. And things were very very different around 25 years ago, and even up to recently in terms of what they wanted, generally speaking, or believed or expected other people to believe (and that actually hasn't changed for the normal ones, so to speak, as far as I have been reading lately, they're just being drowned out by the TRAs). It just wasn't a thing that they expected the people around them to buy into a collective delusion. I'm used to accepting them in that shared context. It's rational. Everybody knows what's up and nobody's kidding anyone about it. They just feel a lot better living as women. Okay, cool. (These are transsexual people who went through extensive therapy and screening and supervision, unlike what's been going on in the last few years. So the odds it actually would be helpful for them are much higher, since they were screened as suitable candidates.)

Blair's thoughts on pronouns and misgendering are pretty sensible and she discusses them here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-6XIwJCpMo

As I have my whole life, I still don't care about someone's pronouns if they are indeed making the effort, as Blair points out, to transition in a plausible way, understand women's issues, stay in their lane, etc. Which is actually what the transsexual people I've known have done. So I have no problem with them. I'll go along, because they know, and I know, that they aren't saying they're a biological woman (if MTF). Nobody's playing that game. They are a different category entirely and it is still okay with me if they "pass" generally speaking. They also aren't trying to trap or trick anyone about who they are in intimate situations, bully doctors for seeing reality, etc. That's a separate character problem which a subset of people will always have regardless of whatever is going on with their feelings about their biological sex.

And at least one transsexual person seems to be happy AF and her video is linked above, so what do I care? What matters is that people get proper help and screening before they go there and don't do it at too young of an age.

But no, I wouldn't try to tar being transsexual with the brush of a claim that it's conversion therapy, I simply don't see the supporting evidence for that argument. It's not my business what someone else does with their body. What I care about is policy decisions that increase harm either to the people considering those changes, or to the rest of us. But their personal choices are none of my business as long as there's no harm to others involved. I feel the same way about religion, and generally speaking religious people way more often want me to believe things that are patently false than normal transsexual people ever have.

I guess that's the difference in our perspectives, or I'm still not quite following you, but first I think we need to clear up inaccurate statements about Blaire in particular so we are on the same page.

In any case, I've known too many normal transsexual people for too long to start adopting the idea that they're pushing some kind of conversion therapy. First of all they aren't pushing anything, that I've ever seen. They're just trying to figure out their own lives. They want to blend in, for the most part.

And as she makes pretty clear above, she doesn't see people as bigots for misgendering someone, so that needs some clarification too. <3

Blaire has also never struck me as homophobic. I am happy to watch videos of hers or first-person sources of hers that show otherwise, though. (I do not think being transsexual is homophobic, and I'm not sure if that is something you are stating. I don't think, and have not heard—among the kind of transsexual people I am referring to here—that it has fuckall to do with sexual orientation unless the choice to transition because of fear of being gay is specific to an individual, and as long as they don't try to make the world bend to their delusions, I don't care—they can figure that out with their therapists. Transitioning over that is very sad, but the bulk of the stories about that happening are much more recent. If you are thinking of Blaire as having said she transitioned to avoid being gay, then I'm all ears, if there's source material verifying it. She's still working her ass off to talk sense into people in other ways, though, so I'm going to cut her some slack. That's a hell of a lot to go through to avoid being gay by being (very very visibly) in a different marginalized group, so I'm not sure I see a big payoff there simply to avoid that. Especially when the group she's now in is acquiring a stigma because of TRAs.)

I'm a Blaire fan as well. We don't agree about everything politically but she's sensible and reasonable in a lot of ways, and yeah, also funny. She's a much more public and gregarious version of what I've thought of as a normal transsexual person for a long, long time, and I can't think of a reason I wouldn't want them around. They're not hurting anyone. And they also wish the TRAs would STFU.

ETA: I would very definitely see conversion therapy in what's going on currently with this stuff being pushed on vulnerable people and kids, by other kids, by doctors (and assorted (other) homophobes such as parents), with policy changes that do harm to them and us, etc. Just so we're clear what I'm referring to, here. I'm referring to the transsexual people who continue to live their lives in the reasonable way transsexual people seem to have been doing for decades before the crazy butted in.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Interesting stuff. Sorry I am a little slow to respond-- I have a bad habit of delaying responding to the most interesting comments, GatitoMalo could tell you that as well :)

Couple thoughts:

  • I hadn't seen that video on misgendering, so I guess I am wrong about Blaire's position on that! That is pretty reasonable, and I don't think I've ever heard a trans person frame it that way before-- "it made me feel hurt to be misgendered, but I realized that I would need to work harder to get to where I wanted to be" taking responsibility for one's own current appearance, and not trying to take control of others' reactions to one's own current appearance. I appreciate you pointing that out.

  • I don't know that I believe in "gender dysphoria" as it is defined in the DSM... it sounds to me like an amalgamation of multiple different sets of symptoms or etiologies, most of which would not be alleviated by transitioning. That is part of why I am very wary of the "transmedicalist/truscum" camp being described as the "good" trans people. However-- unlike I thought-- it sounds like Blaire actually may not fall into this camp.

  • I don't want to disregard your positive experiences with transsexuals. My own experience, with over half a dozen trans people close to my age (mostly transwomen) who I've talked to and gotten to know relatively well, has been: no attempt at medical transition, narcissistic perspective about the world, sexist views of women, and a couple of uncomfortable AGP-esque remarks. So the transsexual people like you describe are something of a myth to me, lol. I don't doubt that they exist, but I tend to be skeptical when I hear someone be like "These are the sane trans people!" and then it turns out that they still have pseudoscientific beliefs about transitioning, e.g. "I have the brain of someone the opposite sex!"

But no, I wouldn't try to tar being transsexual with the brush of a claim that it's conversion therapy, I simply don't see the supporting evidence for that argument. It's not my business what someone else does with their body.

I don't think that transsexuals are all for conversion therapy. I strongly believe that the idea that a person can be "a woman trapped in a man's body" or "a man trapped in a woman's body" is fundamentally homophobic, and born out of conversion therapy. Most trans people (that I have met or that I have seen online) believe this homophobic idea; but it sounds like from how you are describing transsexuals, maybe some of them do not? Blaire may not, I guess, which I didn't realize.

To be honest it almost sounds like there are three camps...

  1. "Tucute" trans trenders who push pseudoscience (e.g. "sex is a spectrum!")

  2. "Transmedicalist" trans people who push pseudoscience (e.g. "man in a woman's body")

  3. Some people who just happened to want to do this with their bodies, recognize biological reality, and just like living this way.

I have no issues with the 3rd group! I have major issues with the 2nd (and obviously 1st as well) group, because they are still pushing pseudoscience even if they say they are "not like the other trans people." Again, I had thought that Blaire was a part of this 2nd group, but perhaps I was too quick to categorize him in that way. And if that is the case, maybe I really have mistaken this group's intentions and perspective. That still seems like a great reason to drop the T, though-- that's a very different set of needs and experiences than the typical LGB person.

(I would also add-- if I met a trans person who passed well enough for me to mistake them for their opposite sex, I would call them by their opposite sex's pronouns because I couldn't tell the difference, and I'm not sure it's an issue for them to go about their life that way stealth-- as long as they don't try to infringe upon spaces that are solely for the opposite sex. My issue is people being fired, coerced, etc. into using the wrong pronouns for someone; that seems like a violation of free speech and freedom of belief.)

Hope that clears up where I am coming from a little bit. Again, I appreciate you taking the time to point out my mistake :) I always learn a lot when I hang out on this sub.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Hey, no feelings of "delay" in replying, I mean, I made a long-ass comment. :-) It's a lot to sort through. Thank you for doing so anyway, whenever you got around to it.

To be honest it almost sounds like there are three camps...

"Tucute" trans trenders who push pseudoscience (e.g. "sex is a spectrum!")

"Transmedicalist" trans people who push pseudoscience (e.g. "man in a woman's body")

Some people who just happened to want to do this with their bodies, recognize biological reality, and just like living this way.

I kind of think this as well, but am not sure that I'd describe my third category quite the same way. But importantly, it is my understanding that for quite a few transsexual people (at least, shall we say, the old school kind), their feelings of being in the wrong body are not related to sexuality, they are even more fundamental than that. Hence I am not ready to get on board with the idea that it's conversion therapy. But if they are not abusing those around them it kind of doesn't matter, to the rest of us, what's really going on there; that's between them and their healthcare professionals, and researchers.

And I think some of it is generational, because your crop of young trans people close to your age is of course going to be different from the ones I have known who are mostly much older. I can see why you have a very different take on it. You're dealing with people whose heads are definitely full of the current TRA nonsense. I don't have the ones I've known handy to take a poll at the moment but I've certainly read the comments of a number of what seem like similarly old-school trans people who are up in arms about what the TRAs are doing, too. So I do think there's a third category and I think that fundamentally it's the oldest one, even if we can't be sure of the features that most accurately describe that group.

I have no issues with the 3rd group! I have major issues with the 2nd (and obviously 1st as well) group, because they are still pushing pseudoscience even if they say they are "not like the other trans people." Again, I had thought that Blaire was a part of this 2nd group, but perhaps I was too quick to categorize him in that way. And if that is the case, maybe I really have mistaken this group's intentions and perspective. That still seems like a great reason to drop the T, though-- that's a very different set of needs and experiences than the typical LGB person.

Yes, no matter what's going on with them it still has nothing to do with us. And their messes, which there will be more of because that's a group that specifically has psychological concerns to address anyway, should not be our problem.

I'm not even sure if the people I'm thinking of as the third group would call themselves "transmedicalists" regardless of that being yet another made-up term of recent creation.

(I would also add-- if I met a trans person who passed well enough for me to mistake them for their opposite sex, I would call them by their opposite sex's pronouns because I couldn't tell the difference, and I'm not sure it's an issue for them to go about their life that way stealth-- as long as they don't try to infringe upon spaces that are solely for the opposite sex. My issue is people being fired, coerced, etc. into using the wrong pronouns for someone; that seems like a violation of free speech and freedom of belief.)

I doubt we're going to win that one any time soon (and I also think it'd be the wrong hill to die on, because if someone is obviously one sex while petulantly expecting people to refer to them as another, it's better to be boring and invisible or you will be a target, and that isn't worth it for the most part; it's not like what you know to be true is going to change because you say specific words in reference to that person in order to get on with your day peaceably, as much as it sucks to have to do that). It'll be won only by them finally getting the idea that too many people see it as bullshit and them not pushing it anymore. And in any case the First Amendment applies not to private companies but to government actors. So it's moot here. But here's a good argument that this should change, which I'm guessing you and I would both agree on as well: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-ongoing-challenge-to-define-free-speech/in-the-age-of-socia-media-first-amendment/

Hope that clears up where I am coming from a little bit.

Yes, it does! Thank you. :-)

ETA:

Here are a couple of Blaire's earlier videos with her basic stances on a couple of core issues. I don't think I have seen much evidence in later videos of her perspectives changing so these should still be fairly relevant:

  1. "Transgenderism - Normal or Disorder?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUOjuiAikrU

  2. "There Are Only 2 Genders" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnQbgShb6r8

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I kind of think this as well, but am not sure that I'd describe my third category quite the same way. But importantly, it is my understanding that for quite a few transsexual people (at least, shall we say, the old school kind), their feelings of being in the wrong body are not related to sexuality, they are even more fundamental than that. Hence I am not ready to get on board with the idea that it's conversion therapy. But if they are not abusing those around them it kind of doesn't matter, to the rest of us, what's really going on there; that's between them and their healthcare professionals, and researchers.

Gotcha, that makes sense. I think I would still like to do a deep dive sometime soon on the origins of transgenderism... I've seen a variety of different takes on it, but my understanding was that it was originated out of homophobia, even though transitioning may be (maybe...) beneficial to some minority of people with a certain mental health issue.

I doubt we're going to win that one any time soon (and I also think it'd be the wrong hill to die on, because if someone is obviously one sex while petulantly expecting people to refer to them as another, it's better to be boring and invisible or you will be a target, and that isn't worth it for the most part; it's not like what you know to be true is going to change because you say specific words in reference to that person in order to get on with your day peaceably, as much as it sucks to have to do that). It'll be won only by them finally getting the idea that too many people see it as bullshit and them not pushing it anymore. And in any case the First Amendment applies not to private companies but to government actors. So it's moot here. But here's a good argument that this should change, which I'm guessing you and I would both agree on as well: https://www.americanbar.org/groups/crsj/publications/human_rights_magazine_home/the-ongoing-challenge-to-define-free-speech/in-the-age-of-socia-media-first-amendment/

That is very interesting, thanks for the link. I'm curious to see how it all plays out. Yeah, I mean practically I agree, avoiding being targeted is probably the main goal at this point. But I certainly don't want to live like this forever.

I'll take a look at those videos, thanks. And again, thanks for sharing your perspective :)

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 6 fun -  (1 child)

Milo has probably done more to disabuse people that conversion therapy works than anyone else in recent history--because everyone knows he's a grifter. Thanks, Milo.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Lol, good point.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Milo Yiannopoulos is faking it. Either he’s trying to get attention after four years of being irrelevant, or he’s setting up a space where he can take advantage of vulnerable men and vulnerable teenage boys. Maybe he was misquoted, but didn’t Milo suggest that the age of consent be lowered to 13? Yeah, I wouldn’t trust Milo around a teenager. I stopped liking Milo Yiannopoulos years ago, when it became clear that he was an attention whore. And maybe Milo is just deciding he wants to be celibate for the rest of his life, and that’s his right, but that’s still not fair to his husband.

I’m not a fan of Blaire White, but he is still a better person than Milo Yiannopoulos. Blaire White wants to be a woman despite his biology, but at least he doesn’t force things on other people. He just wants to be left alone, and I can respect that.

[–]reluctant_commenter 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Maybe he was misquoted, but didn’t Milo suggest that the age of consent be lowered to 13? Yeah, I wouldn’t trust Milo around a teenager.

That's funny... because he actually mentioned in an interview several years ago that he had been sexually abused by an older man in his early teens. The person interviewing him was like "oh my god I'm so sorry that happened to you" and he was like "Oh no I wanted it, I was such a precocious teen," and the people on the show were like "Dude. Kids can't consent. What happened to you was sexual abuse" and he wouldn't admit it. I can go dig up the link.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Guess Milo was misquoted. He has gone on to say that he does think that adults who have sex with prepubescent children deserve life imprisonment or the death penalty. But I did get the impression that he supported lowering the age of consent to 13 or 14, which I strongly disagree with. Though maybe he’s changed his mind on that now. Still, if he opens up a conversion therapy clinic and he wants parents to be able to send their teenage children there, then I’d be extremely suspicious of Milo's intentions.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Totally agree, I am still suspicious of him as well.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Blaire's take is very solid. I agree that the decision to change behaviors can be the right choice for some people, especially in a religious context. I am a religious person, very serious Neo-pagan/Buddhist, and (from that particular perspective) there are reasons to question what is going on spiritually/energetically with respect to homosexuality. How you meet these questions can vary from person to person, my own choice was devotion to a single person and to use that devotion as a lifelong spiritual meditation on male-male love (which is a thing even if you aren't a gay man). Other people will have different perspectives and require different choices. But, like Blaire, I don't think sexual orientation changes much over a lifetime, whatever your choice your sexuality is going to remain the same (while I am devoted to a single man I do "notice" other men and don't pretend to myself that I do not).

Also, like Blaire, I think Milo is just attention-whoring.

[–]censorshipment 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

I cackled. I'm not very familiar with Milo... I tend to ignore anything about men in general... but that was a good retort.

[–]justagaydude123 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

He's a pedo apologist. See his Joe Rogan interview.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Was that the one where he described how he had been sexually abused? And then denied that it was sexual abuse because "he was a precocious teenager and wanted it"?

When I watched that, it sounded to me like he was deep in denial. :/

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Agreed. Two gay men, each of them pushing a different flavor of conversion therapy.

[–]Kai_Decadence 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep and both equally obnoxious. Honestly the only trans-identified man who I have the slightest bit of respect for is Miranda Yardley even though he's still just as much a man as the rest of them.