50 years after Stonewall we are now fighting bisexual people as well as heterosexuals for our right to same-sex attraction

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[–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void[M] [score hidden] stickied comment (0 children)

I'm just going to remind everyone, play nicely with each other. Lesbians, gay men, AND bisexuals are all welcome here.

This article isn't an invite to open the floodgates and start fighting about who has it worse and why. Thoughtful, nuanced discussion of our differences and struggles are fine, but remember to be respectful of each other.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 54 insightful - 1 fun54 insightful - 0 fun55 insightful - 1 fun -  (19 children)

There is no "now" about it. Confused bisexuals who think they are straight or L/G have been doing this shit since the beginning of time and it's ironic because most of them refuse to be called bisexual. They insist they are straight or L/G and that they chose to be. They think EVERYONE is capable of being attracted to both male and female just like they are and that most people choose to be straight because that's what society teaches them is normal from a very young age, and some weirdos for whatever reason choose to be exclusively homo, who the fuck knows why, but everyone is capable of switching it up whenever they feel like it.

It's the most annoying thing ever, and most of these clowns will fight you to the death if you try to explain it to them that no, most humans are monosexual and they can't just decide to like the other sex. The ability to prefer one over the other, the ability to just focus on one and ignore your attraction to the other, the ability to completely deny to yourself that you are attracted to the other, or convince yourself 'everyone feel like this'... that's still bisexual. It's bisexual delusion.

If you try to call these people bisexual, they'll cry "don't you dare label me!!!!"

[–]reluctant_commenter 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

It's really interesting to hear you describe it that way-- like, it must be such an interesting perspective to be able to feel the same way about men and women in terms of attraction. People often fall prey to the assumption that "Everyone else experiences the world the same way I do!" so I get why someone could make that mistake easily, but it's still really frustrating to try to get through to someone who refuses to consider that other people might literally have a different experience of the world.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's extra hard because (especially in this generation it all loops back into IDENTITY) they are personally invested in their worldview being true. If I found out tomorrow that being bisexual was caused by eating bananas as a baby and that I wasn't really born that way, my brain would probably explode. So you can't just provide these people with facts and step back and let them process. They will reject the facts because they need to protect their worldview at all costs. (I have no idea what the solution is beyond intense therapy and providing them a safe space where their sense of identity isn't threatened.)

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

it must be such an interesting perspective to be able to feel the same way about men and women in terms of attraction

Being attracted to men and women... It's weird. It's sooooo weird. We all try and universalize our experiences, but they're not universal. Yet, we expect that everyone conforms to the same viewpoint as us.

So let me leave you with this. It does not matter to me. Man/women. They're not the same. It's an apples/oranges comparison. People ask me who I prefer? I have my types, absolutely, yes. But it isn't the sex of a person that matters to me.

When everything else is equal, other things take hold. If we're not differentiating on sex, then, what? This is the most subversive form of bisexuality, because it does not concern itself with the sex binary.

This is a bit of a blind spot in the grand scheme of things. I enjoy how men have broad shoulders and big muscles. That's really pleasing to me. I enjoy how women have wide hips and big behinds, that's really pleasing to me. Etc.

It's that blind-spot. It's where man/women breaks down. Insofar as it does not matter. I know that over there: that's a man, and over there: a woman. But I don't care. Because it's exciting. Because it's pleasing. Because they're (high-functioning people who identify with their birth sex) people, like me.

Bisexuality isn't like what you imagined, is it? And why should it be? It's a weird catch-all category.

Is it attraction to both sexes simultaneously heterosexual and homosexual, or is it neither? Treating bisexuality as a continuum of homosexuality and heterosexuality might not be the right answer. Are we perhaps other? Because I feel like other. And I'm here. I've got your back, dealing with all this trans madness.

There's a long history of bisexual this or bisexual that. Whether they should be part of the social movement. Etc. Kinda feeling like a footnote today, and frankly? That's okay. We're different.

I recognize this. The well-adjusted among me recognize this. Different strokes, different folks.

This isn't directed at you, RC, you've been wonderful, but... don't shit on us. There are more important issues at stake today.

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So let me leave you with this. It does not matter to me. Man/women. They're not the same. It's an apples/oranges comparison. People ask me who I prefer? I have my types, absolutely, yes. But it isn't the sex of a person that matters to me.

When everything else is equal, other things take hold. If we're not differentiating on sex, then, what? This is the most subversive form of bisexuality, because it does not concern itself with the sex binary.

That is really interesting... Thanks for sharing your perspective. Unfortunately all of the mainstream articles about bisexuality are stuffed with gender identity bullshit, so it is hard to get a clear sense of anything from those, lol. Nice to hear from people on this sub.

Treating bisexuality as a continuum of homosexuality and heterosexuality might not be the right answer.

Completely agree. The more I hear about it the less that seems like an accurate conceptualization. But I mostly avoid trying to find a better way of framing it and just instead, because I don't have the perspective/experience to suggest a better one.

Kinda feeling like a footnote today, and frankly?

Yeah? You doing okay dude? Feel free to vent if you need to :)

This isn't directed at you, RC, you've been wonderful, but... don't shit on us. There are more important issues at stake today.

That's kind of you :) yeah I have seen a decent amount of bisexual-bashing on LGB saidit subs... especially on s/lesbians towards bisexual women, I don't hang out there so much anymore lol. It seems almost ironic-- the TQ+ movement fosters a lot of stereotypes about bisexuals but there's a different set of stereotypes I sometimes see here.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Feel free to vent if you need to :)

I should really preface my venting posts with "VENT FOLLOWS:"

Unfortunately all of the mainstream articles about bisexuality are stuffed with gender identity bullshit

Oh god yes. Some definition is I see banging around is: attraction to more than one gender. So if you're attracted to women and women with mullets, you're bisexual. I've actually seen some women pull the mullet off, and not in a chic way, more like a redneck way... anyhow.

Anyhow, to make a long story short, I'm sure if you ask 100 bi people, you'll get 100 answers on how they experience it.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Being attracted to men and women... It's weird. It's sooooo weird.

YES! Has become clear to me lately just how true this is. The essential... strangeness of bisexuality, in that it is SO fundamentally different than any of the other orientations. To a degree, and in ways, that I am only just beginning to appreciate. The pervasive failure to understand this-- particularly in the form of stigmatizing it (and us)-- is the basis for "biphobia", I think, and the ultimate source of our problems. And, in a sense? I can't really blame you monosexuals for not "getting" us. Cuz we're WEIRD! I just wish we could find a way to communicate this weirdness so that it didn't seem bad, or threatening, or like the proverbial mystery wrapped inside an enigma; so you could get us just enough, and know that, even if you're still "WTF?" to a certain extent... that's OK.

Bisexuality isn't like what you imagined, is it? And why should it be? It's a weird catch-all category.

Exactly. It's a "weird catch-all category" because it encompasses all forms of "both/and"-ism... and there are so MANY of them! Which, again, is a complete departure from heterosexuality/homosexuality: you guys don't have anything like this. Two basic types of attraction, perhaps quite different from each other, intersecting and diverging in all sorts of ways. Result: what we refer to as "bisexuality" comes in a dizzying array of "flavors".

Is it attraction to both sexes simultaneously heterosexual and homosexual, or is it neither? Treating bisexuality as a continuum of homosexuality and heterosexuality might not be the right answer. Are we perhaps other? Because I feel like other. And I'm here. I've got your back, dealing with all this trans madness.

SO well-put! Yes, I am increasingly convinced that we cannot be treated, or understood, as a continuum of homosexuality/heterosexuality; natural though that approach might seem... it's just not getting us. Cuz we're WAY weirder than that! Bisexuals aren't merely the gray area between the well-defined poles of straight and gay: we're our own thing.

But that doesn't make us traitors-- as though we're "bad gay people", you know? Since we're not gay people at all. What we ARE is SSA. Like you. And that should be enough. To have something in common that puts us at odds with an overwhelmingly-heterosexual society, and sometimes in its cross-hairs. Even if the way that we experience it isn't always precisely the same. It doesn't need to be. We can be "other" and still have your back. Just like you can have ours.

OK, I'm crying now...

Thanks so much for writing this :)

[–]Jinera 25 insightful - 4 fun25 insightful - 3 fun26 insightful - 4 fun -  (7 children)

The funny thing is that you can always tell which lg people are actually bisexual because they will be the loudest about being lg

Whenever I hear girls goint on about "oh my goddddd im so gay!! Im so gay" they are always bisexual and have only been in relationships with men.

My understanding is that they are extra loud about "being gay" to make up for the fact that they are mostly opposite sex attracted lol

[–]censorshipment 22 insightful - 11 fun22 insightful - 10 fun23 insightful - 11 fun -  (0 children)

So fucking true. My bisexual ex says she's "gayer" than I am yet has three kids, and her longest relationship was with a man (10 years) after she had been out and dating women during her 20s (she had a girlfriend for about 5 years and cheated on her with other women). She's 42 and refuses to call herself bisexual. Utterly ridiculous.

Oh, I've never been with a man. Full-blown lesbian.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Seriously, back when I was doing self-harm by being on /r/bisexuals, there would always be these "I AM SSSSOOO GAY!" people who would post rainbow flags and shit. And there would be a small minority of us going... "ahem ahem... do you know that you are in the bisexual sub for bisexual people?" and they would go "OMG HOW DAAAARE YOUUUU I AM GAY RRRREEEEEEE!!!" and we would just be like....... "okay then." They wanted that "GAY" label so badly. Like go fuck off to the gay sub and be gay then! WHy are you here???

[–]hufflepuff-poet 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think bisexual people should start policing bi spaces more and calling out these biphobic bi-folks, like if you don't "identify" as a bisexual...why are you invading bi spaces, if you're gay go be in a gay space but don't expect to talk about your opposite sex attraction in those gay spaces (and maybe think about why you want to claim to be gay so badly when your experience aligns more closely with bisexuality...)

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 22 insightful - 3 fun22 insightful - 2 fun23 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Believe me, we tried and we failed. It's so soul crushing to get shrieked at by a 15 year old little shit who is outraged that I am gatekeeping her being allowed to call herself gay. I'm so sick of babysitting other people's children on the internet. I'm not even a mod there and it was only a matter of time before they would have banned me for pissing off and invalidating the toddlers. All they wanted to do was jerk off about The Legend of Korra's haircut and talk about lemon bars and how "gay" they were, with a passive-aggressive jab at us nay-sayers with "gay is an umbrella term so fuck off haters!" /r/bisexual is a lost cause. (I know you don't mean just that sub, that's just the main bi internet space I have prolonged experience with before jumping ship 2 years ago.)

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I'm so sick of babysitting other people's children on the internet.

[cue the marching band]

[–]lovelyspearmintLesbeing a lesbian 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That is so true. I have a bisexual friend who constantly talks about being gay as fuck, gushes over attractive women, but has only had one short relationship with a woman and has otherwise been and continues to be with men. Like, it's fine if you're mostly attracted to men, but don't overcompensate on the other front.

[–]Seahorse 13 insightful - 5 fun13 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Yes or they'll get angry that a "biphobic" lesbian won't date them, when they're "happily married" to a male.

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    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 27 insightful - 5 fun27 insightful - 4 fun28 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

    In general, there are three categories of bisexuals out there. The first category consists or normal human beings who just so happen to go both ways. I call them normal people. You wouldn’t tell that they’re bi because they either enter into permanent monogamous relationships or they don’t go on about their dating or sex lives - you’d only know they’re bisexual if you asked them. For example, most of the people on this sub. My sister is another example - it’s such an afterthought for me, I know she’s bisexual and she even gets more involved in this pride stuff than I do, but it’s just there. I hardly notice it.

    The second category consists of bisexuals who never shut the fuck up about being bisexual. I call them whiners. They whine about supposedly being more oppressed than homosexuals, and hog most of the oxygen for themselves at gay spaces. Look, I know it sucks when society tells you to pick a side, accuses you of being horny or accuses you of being incapable of commitment. Apples to oranges, because at least in a homophobic society a bisexual can stay in the closet and find love in a socially sanctioned manner with a member of the opposite sex. Different oppression, but no better or worse than ours. These people are part of the reason why biphobia is still a thing even in gay-friendly areas. Examples include the idiots who bullied August Ames to suicide, or Buck Angel, who thinks that everybody owes her an Australian kiss.

    Finally, there are bisexuals who deny they are bisexual. Claim to be straight or gay, and then turn around and say that “sexuality is fluid” or “sexuality is a choice”. I call them shapeshifters. These people are one reason why bisexual erasure is dangerous. This primary hurts bisexuals, but it hurts homosexuals and heterosexuals as well. Examples include the idiot who wrote this article, “straight” or “gay” people who are dating transsexuals like Blaire White’s boyfriend, and Ted Haggard used to be in this category until he got caught. Maybe Gavin McInnes is in this category as well?

    EDIT: added some sentences.

    [–]pacmanla 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Finally, there are bisexuals who deny they are bisexual. Claim to be straight or gay, and then turn around and say that “sexuality is fluid” or “sexuality is a choice”. These people are one reason why bisexual erasure is dangerous. This primary hurts bisexuals, but it hurts homosexuals and heterosexuals as well.

    I wish I could give you a standing ovation for this statement here. This group highlighted here, are really the ones gaslighting trans individuals & keep parroting that "sex is fluid" nonsense. It hurts real lesbians, gays, bisexuals & yes, even heterosexuals are harmed by those who keep parroting this.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks. People like this man are a menace to society.

    [–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    My mom is a shapeshifter 😑 it's the "kind" of bisexual people I tolerate the least. Preach to the sane bis out there

    [–]MyLongestJourney 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    This post deserves all the upvotes!

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Yes! /u/redeyedwarrior thanks for breaking it down so plainly. The bisexual "community" is so disjointed and fractured that it isn't really a community at all, especially when such a big chunk of it won't even admit to being bi and at the same time harming us.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thank you. It's not a "community" and people with psychological issues will have them regardless of whatever orientation they claim—and those are the people we're talking about, here: People who are not reality-based and level-headed. I'd prefer it if we'd use the proper terms for them and leave bisexuality out of it with respect to the correct definition. There are unstable and unwell people of all orientations. We don't use that to smear an entire category of people. (Imagine, for example, if lesbians were smeared as a group based on the antics of AGP males who claim they are lesbians—the word "lesbian" isn't relevant there just like the word "bisexual" isn't relevant here. The orientation (or bogus use of such a term) is not what inspires the crappy behavior or the delusions or the character flaws.)

    [–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

    Which category are the "I'm not bi unless I'm dating the same sex" bisexual people in? They are the opposite of the "I'm bi even though my partner is the opposite sex" bisexual people.

    My mom is bi but hasn't dated a woman in nearly 40 years. She does not consider herself a member of the lgb community. Her eldest sister is the same... she's been married to her husband for 37 years and has had a girlfriend on the side the entire time but does not consider herself bi because she's married to a man.

    Is this a generational thing? Are older bi people less likely to identify as bi?

    [–]CuntWorshiperWomenholic full time | vagina fetishist part-time 6 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

    I feel quite shitty for know who August Ames was lol that were some good tits, god bless.

    I knew she committed suicide but never knew why. Was the reason homophobia? Who bullied her?

    [–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    August Ames

    I also know her. But I was like "no, it isn't who I'm thinking because if she is, then she is a.........". Yes, she is. God, the shame.😅 I had no idea she committed suicided though😵 poor woman

    [–]CuntWorshiperWomenholic full time | vagina fetishist part-time 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    I found out she killed herself in the same day the news was out. I even paid her a posthumous tribute.

    Most perfect tits went to waste, rather sad. 😔

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    August Ames was a porn actress. She was bisexual, so she did adult films with both female and male actors. What got her into trouble was her refusal to do sex scenes with male crossover actors. Those male actors were doing gay porn and straight porn. Ames’ concern was AIDS - she worked in California, where intentionally infecting someone with AIDS is treated as bad as parking your car illegally. And some of the gay porn studios in California don’t test their actors. Some of the actors within the industry bullied Ames for this, until she took her own life. Aand these same people then turned around and played the victim when they got called out for driving this woman to suicide. While it might seem critical at face value that a bisexual woman won’t sleep with a bisexual man, but there is a possibility that she would have slept with a bisexual actor if he never did gay porn, or at least was tested negative for STDs. Ames saw something that was wrong with the studio the actor whom she refused to sleep with previously worked at, so it wasn’t about him being bisexual, but him being untrustworthy. Instead, this actor and a bunch of his friends harassed August Ames and twisted it to make it look like she was homophobic. Not biphobic, but homophobic. As if a gay man is going to give a shit if a woman refuses to sleep with him, why would he want that?

    [–]reluctant_commenter 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

    It sounds like this man is really struggling to admit that he is probably bisexual, in spite of evidence to the contrary. I know there is a lot of stigma regarding bisexuality among men-- it sounds like it is erased possibly even more than being lesbian is!

    Does anyone have suggestions for how we might address this issue? Obviously, reducing negative stereotypes about bisexuality would help, but I wonder how one might best approach someone so clearly in denial. It is OK if he is not ready to accept his sexual orientation or if he is still exploring; it is not OK for him to spread misinformation about homosexuality/bisexuality while dealing with his own situation, because it harms the rest of us (and it's not true anyway, so it won't be helpful to him in the long run).

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

    Oddly enough, a lot of the stigma towards bisexual men comes from straight women. Straight women love to coo over gay men and be 'fag hags' but when it comes to bisexual men, they act like these men are covered in poo. Their two biggest complaints are "I could never be with a man who takes it up the ass" (and yet you drool over gay boys???) and "he will cheat on me with some guy, they always do!" (like a straight man can't cheat on you with some woman??) and I also see a lot of "who knows what diseases he has?" (like straight men don't have diseases??)

    I've tried really hard in the past to promote bisexual men as amazing sex partners to women (a man who knows what being penetrated feels like, and what being with a man feels like, is more likely to be gentle and attentive to a woman's needs blah blah) and I've managed to convince some women to re-examine their prejudices, but it's an uphill battle. Closeted bisexual and gay men who marry women and cheat on them really ruin it for the bisexual men who just want to find one person and be monogamous.

    Anyway, let me not talk on behalf of bi men, this is just my experiences watching from the outside.

    [–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Seriously? They'll fetishize men who won't be attracted to them and shun those that are? I thought that was a smaller group with high correlation with identifying as a man.

    But I get the gist of what you mean about bi men having the opportunity to learn to be better in bed than straight men. The best lays I've had (as a bottom) were with versatile men. The total tops have no idea what they're doing because they don't know what feels good for a bottom as intimately as someone who has bottomed can

    [–]reluctant_commenter 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (14 children)

    Straight women love to coo over gay men and be 'fag hags' but when it comes to bisexual men, they act like these men are covered in poo. Their two biggest complaints are "I could never be with a man who takes it up the ass" (and yet you drool over gay boys???) and "he will cheat on me with some guy, they always do!" (like a straight man can't cheat on you with some woman??)

    Okay that is so strange. I have firsthand heard so many straight women be like "omg I love gay men" that I would think they'd be on board for bisexual men...

    Maybe they have such an idealized view of gay men that they think gay men "don't take it up the ass" and only like, hold hands or some shit, lol.

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

    I have spent years trying to psychoanalyze this because logically it makes no sense.

    From what I can see, certain straight women see gay men as pets. Like these cute little things that love fashion and musicals and will go shopping with you - basically your Gay BFF. These men are safe because they would never rape you or perv on you, but... also... they're cute. They shave off all their body hair, they take care of themselves, they're pretty, they're feminine, they smell good, they wear make-up, they poop sparkly rainbows, and they are sooo sooo deliciously unattainable.

    In these women's eyes, these gay men are pure and beautiful and magical. These women nurture these unrequited crushes on these BFFs (if they even get close enough to be BFFs, most of the time it's more like an uncomfortable acquaintance) and there is a "nice guy" quality to it. Like maybe, one day, if I hang around him enough, magically he will fall in love with me, throw me on the bed and have his way with me. Realistically they know this will never happen, but there is an irrational drive inside of them that makes them hope this anyway.

    Meanwhile bisexual men are seen as easy to get, hold no challenge at all, and are dirty and promiscuous.

    It's kind of like how MTFs obsess about lesbians. Something about knowing they will never get a lesbian turns them on. They don't get excited by bisexual women at all. The holy grail is the lesbian, us bi gals are chopped liver.

    This is just me figuring this stuff out as an outsider looking in, so I don't how for sure if my opinions are correct. Straight women will deny deny deny that they have crushes on their gay male obsessions, but usually it's so obvious to everyone else around them, and so uncomfortable for the guy in question once he realizes what's happening. His female "best friend" is actually a female "nice guy."

    [–]reluctant_commenter 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

    From what I can see, certain straight women see gay men as pets. Like these cute little things that love fashion and musicals and will go shopping with you - basically your Gay BFF. These men are safe because they would never rape you or perv on you, but... also... they're cute. They shave off all their body hair, they take care of themselves, they're pretty, they're feminine, they smell good, they wear make-up, they poop sparkly rainbows, and they are sooo sooo deliciously unattainable.

    Ok that checks out so, so much with my experience with this one straight woman in particular. That's so strange... but makes a lot of sense when you put it that way. I have heard straight women freak out over gay guys like this and never really understood it, just like, "Oh, that gay guy likes doing X feminine activity, cool." I guess not being attracted to men might be part of my lack of similar feeling, but it does sound like this subset of women REALLY idealizes gay men, to the point of not really seeing them as human agents.

    Thank you for your service as the Straight Woman Whisperer. 🤣

    Something about knowing they will never get a lesbian turns them on. They don't get excited by bisexual women at all. The holy grail is the lesbian, us bi gals are chopped liver.

    Ok, these people seriously need therapy if they are so excited over something so unattainable. I mean that genuinely, like they might need some support in their lives. That does not okay them doing creepy fetishizing stuff, but still. And that is dumb that TRAs are so dismissive of bi people. These behaviors benefit none of us, bisexual/homosexual people alike.

    [–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    And let me tell you! This idealization towards gay men is not exclusive from straight women. Although not so predominant, it sometimes happens with bi women as well. You have no idea 😂 I have a bi female friend which has a tendency to fall in love with gay guys (HER words, not mine!!). I've met her this year through college and I have a hard time making male friends unless they're feminine and preferenciably gay. The femininity aspect because it makes me so much easier to connect with someone Idk why. And it's best for me if they're gay because I instantly get 100% comfortable around them. It's like that invisible path we know "I don't like you that way and neither do you!". But idgf about being their bff or something of the sort lmao. And I met a feminine gay guy and I noticed my female friend (who didn't know I was a lesbian yet) got very defensive when I talked to him and I couldn't understand why????? I was like, he's gay lady???? And I'm a lesbian although you don't know but you know he's gay so? 😂 It was later when she told me she usually crushes on gay guys and suddenly everything made sense LMAO. God, we gays and lesbians can't have peace can we? xD

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    ETA: I was about to make a similar comment about some straight women seeing gay men as their BFFs when I glanced down and saw yours. I agree.

    The holy grail is the lesbian, us bi gals are chopped liver.

    Pardon me for saying so, but I hope they continue to always see bisexual women as chopped liver. I am not in any way missing out by not being pursued by them. (And...I have been. So I am extra careful to not be out around them because twice now I've seen this bizarre logic pass over them in which "sleeps with women sometimes" = "will sleep with me of course." And I'm not talking about TRAs, either. And still, I feel like some sort of carnival ride that's selling tickets and they want to get on, when they realize I'm not straight.)

    And my hands are full already helping our lesbian and gay sisters and brothers deal with this shit.

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

    Haha yes! Team chopped liver forever! I'm so glad to be repulsive to trans people! It's just so amazing how psychological their fetish is. All it takes is one label between then being turned on by you and you being invisible to them.

    But I'd like to hear your POV about the Gay BFF thing. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped in an echo-chamber in my own head and it's good to compare notes with other people who've noticed the same things.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Well, I haven't observed it in the wild in some time but my impression was always that it was kind of a schoolgirl crush / groupie thing. In other words the women doing that aren't all that mature anyway. So they're reacting to certain traits of certain gay men as if they just made a new BFF, but also doing some cognitive dissonance by ignoring whatever the fact that he's a dude is stirring up in them. It seemed childish to me.

    I mean there's nothing wrong with finding someone attractive but do remember they're a human being and don't be an ass. Same reason you should leave celebrities alone when you see them walking down the street. Don't intrude.

    As for bisexual men being better lovers, I can only say: I've had three, and they are decidedly better lovers than straight men in my experience, statistically-insignificant though it might be. I would pick a bisexual man over a straight man any day, all other things being equal. Never occurred to me to see them as "tainted" any more than I would be, by sleeping with a man. I mean, let's not be hypocritical, here. (Straight women who think bisexual men are "tainted" don't see the hypocrisy, apparently.)

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Haha same! If I had to end up with a man, I would much prefer it to be a bisexual man. (And the same, with women.) It's sad that we bisexuals never had a culture where we had bi-only spaces where bi people dating other bi people was normalized.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I would totally go for that. I sort of by-default ended up in a community that has a lot of bisexual people in it, and at least until woke TRA nonsense started to infiltrate (more among the straight people), and even though I haven't been interested in dating them for the most part (because gosh, we're just as selective as most other people, imagine), I've been much happier, because that whole topic is just out of the way. Nobody cares, nobody is uptight, nobody is fighting for some sort of turf. It's lovely. And the rest don't care that we're bisexual. So it's just like your hair color—no big deal. It's just more relaxed, in some unmistakable, fundamental way, as a social group.

    And I agree about bisexual women. Bisexual people—and I feel like I've known enough (dozens at least, and I've known more L and G folks) to say something credible about this—all seem more relaxed. There's no better word. It's easier to be around them. Nobody's insecure or suspicious about anything. We can just be people. There's no maneuvering. Or judging people because of who they've slept with. It's not a topic anyone cares about. So yeah, I'd move to Bi Island in a hot second. As long as we're talking mature, healthy, sane, adult bisexual people like the ones I personally know.

    [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I have spent years trying to psychoanalyze this because logically it makes no sense.

    Same here! Especially since I myself prefer bi men! (And bi women, too, for that matter.) So it's a perpetual mystery that my straight counterparts can't see the appeal.

    As best I can tell, it's because they don't even consider these men to BE bi in the first place (since, of course, there's no such thing). Meaning that they must be either straight or gay.

    For men, "straight" is defined less as a matter of being attracted to women than of NOT being attracted to men. Women aren't entitled to men's love/desire (the way that men are entitled to women's); attraction to them matters mainly as proof that a man isn't gay. THAT'S the important thing. Why? Because male desire is perceived as an act of dominance; it puts the recipient in a subordinate, demeaned-- otherwise known as "female"-- role. So directing that at fellow men insults them, and wanting that FROM them is "humiliating". Taboo either way.

    Therefore, if a man is male-attracted... he's gay. Because female attraction doesn't really even count.

    The upshot of all this being: these women see bi men not only as gay men, but as BAD gay men. Since, if they say they're attracted to women, that CAN'T possibly be true: must mean they're closet cases-- self-hating, in denial, disloyal to the gay community... liars. To themselves, and, particularly, to women. Whom they're trying to fool, of course, into believing that these men could ever really want them, or love them.

    So... that's what I think is really going on here.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    These straight women tend to only like “camp” gay men. And I’m not talking about effeminate gay men, but gay men who obsess over fashion, drag queens, musicals, hairdressing, pride parades, romance flicks, shallow music and interior decorating, while talking in a stereotypical lispy voice. These fag-hags find the buttsecks gross, but they still want their pet homosexuals to be their servants and validate them. These fag hags wouldn’t be interested in friendships with gay men who are masculine, or effeminate gay men who think for themselves, because those gay men aren’t “tame”. Those gay men aren’t “neutered”. When a man is bisexual, he’s fucking, so he’s not “tame”.

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

    Yes either the camp ones or the really pretty ones, and with the pretty ones it's like something wild happens to their brains. All logic and reason disappears. They know the dude is gay, they know they have no chance, but they still follow him around like a slobbering puppy and get intensely jealous when any other girl tries to talk to him.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Do they get jealous when another man talks to the pretty gay guy?

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

    No, that's "sssoooo cuuuuute"

    (and then go home and cry at night into their pillows probably)

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Just as I suspected.

    [–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    It's hard to address right now because any bisexual who is in denial like this is probably too woke to listen if someone were to approach them. There's also the issue that many people, (including straight people, bisexuals, and LGs), flippantly refer to bisexuals as either gay or straight, especially if they're in a relationship (so they get called gay if in a same sex relationship, and straight if in a hetero one). Part of why biphobia is so rampant is because the bi erasure component is so common. No one bothers calling you bi, so why should you call yourself bi right? People would rather handwave and say 'who cares if so and so is bi? They're in a gay/straight relationship so that's what I'll call them.' There are also people who don't think bisexuality is real in the first place so they refuse to use the term at all.

    What I've started doing is correcting my woke friends when they try to call me gay or lesbian, and insisting that they use terms like bi/bisexual when referring to my sexuality, no matter how annoyed they get. I've also started correcting other people when they mistakenly refer to a bisexual celebrity as gay (or straight). I also make it a point to use 'bisexual' when I notice someone tiptoeing around it (saying things like 'your sexuality is fluid' or 'you're pretty open minded sexually right?' ). I agree it only harms all of us when bisexuals co-opt L/G labels. At the very least I can try to get those around me more comfortable with using the term 'bisexual'.

    [–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    I've also started correcting other people when they mistakenly refer to a bisexual celebrity as gay (or straight).

    Same; Every time someone gets it wrong. End Bi-Erasure in our lifetimes. And the concept of fluid sexual orientation and the non-binary definitions of Bisexuality while we're at it. Those too need to die long before I do.

    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Seriously. What really pisses me off is when it should be obvious a celebrity is bi but people gloss right over it. I see it all the time. 'I thought so and so was a lesbian. Right? She had a girlfriend. She's married to a man now? So she's straight?' BI. She's BI. Jesus.

    And the concept of fluid sexual orientation and the non-binary definitions of Bisexuality while we're at it. Those too need to die long before I do.

    HEAR HEAR.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    No one bothers calling you bi, so why should you call yourself bi right?

    Gotchaaaaa. That totally makes sense when you put it that way.

    I agree it only harms all of us when bisexuals co-opt L/G labels. At the very least I can try to get those around me more comfortable with using the term 'bisexual'.

    That sounds like a good place to start. :) I'll try to do the same for the people I know who are bisexual when I see it.

    [–][deleted] 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

    Good luck haha. It's been rougher than I thought honestly. I had one friend who kept telling me it was ok if I came out as a lesbian and I was like. I mean I appreciate the support but I'm not a lesbian. Even if I'd only ever been in relationships with women (which isn't the case, but for arguments' sake), I'm still attracted to men therefore I can never be a lesbian. It was just strange to me that she kept telling me it was ok if I was a lesbian when I kept telling her I was bi. It felt like she wanted me to be either gay or straight and I was just like. Well, I'm neither. And unlike biological sex there is actually a third option so...

    [–]hufflepuff-poet 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Stopped reading after the "mostly because it shows that my own personal history resists the kind of easy classifications that have come to dominate discussions of sexuality." and the "I'm gay- but I wasn't born this way". Just say you're a bisexual who wants to be "special and different", so over this "sexuality is fluid bs" no it isn't but biphobia is rampant, especially among the bisexual community!!! Yes sexuality is a journey and some people struggle to determine their orientation for awhile and can have sexual experiences with both sexes but monosexual attraction is still a real thing and gay people do not choose to be exclusively same-sex attracted, each individual homosexual chooses whether to accept their exclusive same-sex attraction and live authentically but that is an individual journey not proof that "gay people choose to be gay"

    [–]julesburm1891 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I do not understand why it is so hard for a significant portion of bi people to just accept both that they’re bi and that not everyone else is bi. Being bi is totally fine. Just embrace it instead of throwing the literally rest of humanity under the bus.

    Also, I don’t get why the author has such a hard time grasping that’s he’s bi because he’s only been in love with one woman. Bruh, you’re just higher up on the Kinsey scale but you’re still bi. This isn’t rocket science.

    And, no, sexual orientation isn’t some rigid fixture imposed on you by society. Given that there are two sexes, there are only four possible options to attraction. (01-heterosexual, 10-homosexual, 11-bisexual, 00-asexual.) This is how binary systems work, my dude.

    [–]censorshipment 17 insightful - 9 fun17 insightful - 8 fun18 insightful - 9 fun -  (4 children)

    I've dated so many bi women who didn't believe I'm not attracted to men. Yes, I admire men in what I assume is a similar way straight men admire men... I can look at an obviously attractive man and admire some things or everything about him. But I don't get turned on at all by men. Bi women don't seem to understand nor believe that, yet they don't question straight men's sexuality.

    For any MTV's The Challenge fans... we know almost every man and woman who have participated on the show admires CT. He carried a grown ass man on his back like a backpack during an elimination (video linked below). Whenever I root for CT, like men and women root for him, my exes have questioned my sexuality assuming I'm cheering for him like a cheerleader who wants to suck his dick because that's how their bisexual asses cheer for men.

    https://youtu.be/1MfyLzLVmZI

    Ugh, ignore the video commentary... couldn't find a clip of just that elimination.

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Your exes are weird. I watched the clip and that was awesome but he didn't turn me on at all.

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

    Saw the video. There was nothing erotic whatsoever about it. It would have been erotic if CT carried Johnny bridal style or piggyback style, but this method of carrying someone is just too bizarre. Yes, I’m a gay man, and I still find it to be like any other tough but wacky challenge. Your bisexual exes are either looking for an excuse to push their narrative that lesbians don’t exist, or they are cumbrains who see everything in a sexual way. I can see why they’re your exes.

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    cumbrains

    [tucks that term into her pocket for later use]

    [–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Another vote for your exes being messed up. If I was dating a lesbian I'd be super damned respectful and protective of that fact about her, FFS. This is not complicated.

    [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

    Here's some background on this guy. I would feel bad for him because he's clearly been trying to square following a religion that doesn't treat him with much respect, but the fact that he does so publicly just makes other people's lives worse.

    [–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Whoa, holy shit. Thank you for sharing!

    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Nah, I don’t feel sorry for him one bit. He’s hurting the community.

    [–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    He sounds delusional. It sucks that anyone would give him a platform and allow him to spew this nonsense.

    load more comments (1 reply)

      [–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

      It makes me sad to see other bisexuals so afraid to call themselves bi. This man is clearly bi, but would rather 'choose to be gay' than use the dreaded B-word. I understand the aversion, but it's accurate. The way to mitigate biphobia is to start using 'bisexual' to describe ourselves where it's accurate, not try to appropriate the L/G label just because some bisexuals have internalized biphobia. I use biphobia specifically because if this man were running from internalized homophobia he'd 'choose' to be straight instead, but he isn't. It's the 'bisexual' part he's so averse to, that's biphobia.

      [–]usehername 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

      So he's bi and leans towards men. The rest is delusion and ideology.

      [–]motss-pb 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

      This article reminds me of that TEDx talk by Lisa Diamond where she argues that we should drop the "born this way" narrative and adopt a "sexuality is fluid" view. See video here:

      https://youtu.be/RjX-KBPmgg4

      Guess what came out of her campaign? The National Association for the Research and Therapy of Homosexuality (NARTH) took her research and used it to argue that homosexuality is a choice and can be changed. Now poor Dr Diamond is stuck doing damage control because, whoops, she found out homophobic conversion therapy groups love her woke sexual fluidity views.

      https://www.wthrockmorton.com/2008/11/12/lisa-diamond-narth-distorts-my-research/

      Here's the thing. "Born this way" is not a nuanced or comprehensive argument for why homosexuality should be accepted. It is simply a short and succinct way for us to say that our sexuality is natural, it was not a choice and we cannot change it. It's a reasonable response to homophobic parents or religious fundamentalists who view homosexuality as a sin or a lifestyle choice. That's it.

      load more comments (1 reply)

        [–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

        He seems to be a MEBmale---Male exclusive bisexual male. It's the reverse of the common term seen---FEBfem(Female exclusive bisexual females).

        He is attracted to both men and women, but purposely only(or mostly) seeks male relationships.

        This article brings up interesting points in the bisexual community. Many STILL don't think bisexuality exists (like this bloke) and believe that they have to "choose a side" so to speak. I think as the B community, we need to focus on providing B specific resources.

        Here's a couple of topics I posted previously:

        1) " 'Bisexual' (men) is just a code for (insincere) gay man"

        • This shows the perspective of what bisexual men have to go through.

        2) Should we take the "B" out of LGBT?

        • The YTuber talks about viewing the letters, L, G, B, and T more as a company or business(not individual), so when he mentions "LG" he means it as a brand and not people.

        • For the LGBT+™ he mentions that bisexuals are being erased and adopting the label "queer" and I believe he may have mentioned "pansexual", not sure if it's in his first or second video.

        • Lastly, he says we need to start making our OWN media/entertainment/etc. He mentions for example about there being no bisexual bars, WE are technically the majority in the LGBT™ but hardly make our own stuff and use the L & G's things.(Plus, I think it would be a nice way NOT to invade or intrude on either our lesbian friend's or gay friend's spaces that are for them---the TRAs are already giving them enough trouble).

        3) Statistics: 8 Things you didn't know about the bisexual community

        • It's a bit of an older study, since 2014, but it mentions bisexuals are least like out of the LGBT to come out and a couple of other facts. I'll have to find and post a more updated one. The problem I ran into finding an updated statistic is that it lumped "queers" with bisexuals.

        4) Among LGBT Americans, bisexuals stand out when it comes to identity, acceptance

        • More statistics taking about bisexuals hardly coming out about their sexual orientation.

        Anywho, I do want to say the author's claim that "no one is born gay or straight, we're just 'human beings'" is ludicrous. You can't control being attracted to who you're attracted to. Not everyone is bisexual AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION IS NOT A CHOICE, that's just nonsense.

        I'm sorry my lesbian sisters and gay brothers that you have idiots like him trying to claim he's something he is not.

        I feel that as part of the B...we definitely have a shit ton of mess to fix and the TRAs are making it worse for us and I HATE that we get lumped in with them, it's depressing.

        Edit: fixed link

        [–]MyLongestJourney 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Science says : Relying on personal experience is the best way to fool yourself...

        [–]PriestTheyCalledHimBisexual 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

        Jane Ward the sociologist in the article is a moron and she used Craigslist which was full of bots, fake ads, spammers, picture collectors, etc.

        The author of the article is not unique or his experience is not uncommon. I know gay men who when they were teens or in their early 20s had sex with and even married women, this was in the 1970s and early 1980s when they thought that if you are gay you had to be effeminate, a drag queen, etc. Or they had no idea how to meet men to date or have sex with and women were available, or they did not know they are gay or did not want to be gay but thought that sex with a woman would make them heterosexual.

        load more comments (1 reply)