DiscussionHow to deal with straight hypocrisy...

submitted by [deleted] from self.LGBDropTheT

So, I am following this straight author on Twitter and she honestly seems like such a lovely person. However, yesterday after the Ian McKellen thing she mad a post that was very angry towards gay people who do not stand up for trans people. But she also made a post agreeing with another straight women saying that we need to define sex from gender on the same day.

I honestly really don't care about her tweets, but I want to use them as a way to discuss the wider issue of straights feeling justified in being angry against gay people for not standing up for TRA. But, then also turning around and supporting the exact same shit we were saying and acting brand new.

Do you thing this is all just virtue signaling? Also do you think that some of these older liberal people (30+) just feel guilty for probably bullying gay people when they were younger and that why they are super pro-trans right activism.

Lastly, how should one ideally respond when straight people try to make homophobia and transphobia into the same thing? Do you think just staying silent the best option? Also in these discussions is it best to try to leave out the fact that you are gay because straight people like to believe that straight opinion is more "objective".

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[–]reluctant_commenter 27 insightful - 2 fun27 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Very curious to hear what other people think. I'm not sure-- especially as regards older straight people doing this.

In my experience, regarding younger straight people spouting "TWAW" (edit: or the like)-- the straight people I've seen loudly talk about trans rights are in the 20s-early 30s age range and seem to laud trans people for performative social reasons. Fortunately, I do think that many people are not on board, they are just quiet about it. For example, at work, I've had several brief conversations with coworkers who told me themselves that they think the most vocal people might just be virtue signalling. The trouble is that nobody wants to speak up and risk an HR visit, or get yelled at, so large-group settings always end up being an echo chamber.

Other guesses?

  • Guilt at their own past poor treatment of LGB people.

  • Desire to help and they have been convinced by the mainstream media that "trans are the most vulnerable" (40 deaths a year in the US, oh my...).

  • Virtue signaling for social kudos. (Esp. among a minority of straight men who seem to be doing it to seem more attractive or something, hahaha.)

  • Fear because if someone else brings it up, some people might feel compelled to also start going all "trans rights!" so they don't get shit for not being on board.

  • Shame at being straight, because the idiotic trans rights movement has convinced a wave of teens and young adults that being straight is "gross, boring, bigoted" and undesirable. (They might even want to transition, but haven't yet-- online, TRAs often nudge these straight people towards r/egg_irl and other trans pipelines.) They might think they are "being a bad person" by conforming to society in some aspects. I am not saying straight people face sexuality-based discrimination the same way that LGB do, but... this isn't okay, and it needs to stop. There is no need to shame people for their sexuality, whatever it is, and it's bullshit that TRAs shame people for being straight, especially shaming impressionable kids for being straight.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Also do you think that some of these older liberal people (30+) just feel guilty for probably bullying gay people when they were younger and that why they are super pro-trans right activism

Yes. In a lot of cases, it’s overcompensation.

I always make it clear to straight people that the struggles faced by trans people are different from the struggles faced by homosexuals and bisexuals. But how I phrase it depends on the person I’m talking to. I’m more honest with how I feel when I talk to my dad or my mate because they don’t believe in transgenderism. My mother, brother and sister believe in it, so instead I say that the T should be separated because they’re oppressed in different ways and therefore need different solutions. My mother agrees with me. She supports trans rights, including trans people in the military, but she supports dropping the T. My brother and sister disagree, but my liberal brother sympathises with people who think the T should be separated. Not sure what my sister thinks, but she believes that there are more than two genders. I just tell her that TRAs need their own separate movement, but in a way that makes it sound like it would benefit them. And honestly, I wouldn’t mind TRAs too much if they were separate from us.

I’m not sure if liberal straight people who claim to support gay rights think that their opinions matter more than gay people, but they are definitely misguided when they think that trans rights helps gay rights. They’re used to thinking that gay people who oppose trans rights or hold "conservative" views are just self-hating or have internalised homophobia. And they want to be the ones who "help" those gays.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for your answer. The reason why I asked about the older liberal people, is because she had this 'how could you 😠' tone with gay people. I think she is one of those cases where she is super pro-TRA due to the activism and the fact that she said she witnessed a trans person commit suicide. Is generally okay with gay men and bisexuals, but looks down or is confused by the existence of lesbians lol. I think she is a really nice person, I was just super confused seeing a tweet about the oh so awfuls gays, and then .2 seconds later agreeing with a straight woman that would be called terf of she was les/bi/ or gay.

I also think its regular shmegular homophobia telling these people they understand gay rights better than a homosexual.

Lastly, I really hate to see a straight woman being applauded and being seen as liberals for views that a lesbian would be cancelled for, most likely by those very same people.

In an unfortuate way, I do think these people forgive themselves for being homophobic, when they see people like us oppose the TRA movement. Which annoys me cuz whose spaces were the old school transsexuals in before the straights came around?

[–]reluctant_commenter 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just wanted to chime in about this piece:

Is generally okay with gay men and bisexuals, but looks down or is confused by the existence of lesbians lol.

I am well acquainted with this conditional acceptance of homosexuality by certain straight women. Gay man = good, lesbian = bad. And besides being harmful to lesbians, the clear divide in attitudes makes me wonder whether these straight women's apparent support for gay men might be more shallow than they claim it to be.

I also think its regular shmegular homophobia telling these people they understand gay rights better than a homosexual.

Totally agree. I think it's fair for straight people to want to participate in the conversation, but for a straight person to think themself superior to the gay/lesbian/bisexual people who have real and legitimate gripes with the trans community, is not only completely out of touch with reality but is condescending as fuck. Many far-left straight people seem to forget that we're the people who trans rights activists bully FIRST, not straight people-- and we are a smaller minority than trans people! (according to Stonewall/GLAAD/all the major orgs, at least)

[–]usehername 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's mostly virtue-signaling and some self-righteousness. They have no idea what they're supporting, and they're just repeating something their favorite celebrity said or that they read on some woke slacktivist's Twitter/Instagram. They don't feel guilty because they buy into the lie that trans people are the most oppressed on Earth. I don't like to stay silent, but I also can't spend all day every day replying to idiots online. I just explain the difference between homophobia and transphobia. Don't leave out the fact that you're gay, because this person has probably not interacted with many gay people and it will benefit them to hear your stance.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

Can you PM me the name of the author if you don't feel comfortable sharing it here? I'm just curious who she is and what she said.

I'm seeing a lot of straight white women (and other races too, but the majority seems to be straight, white, and of the middle class/upper middle class demographic, and right after that, college educated straight black women are the next ones I see doing this a lot, and now that I think of it, I've seen the Latina women who label themselves as Latinx are like this too) who are VEHEMENTLY pro-trans, anti-terf, and are shrieking very loudly about how much they hate JK Rowling and tearing out their hair in shame over what big Harry Potter fangirls they used to be.

Just focusing on the straight people, I think a huge majority of them are absolutely clueless about the "Suck my girldick" stuff. They think trans people are just these poor sweethearts who were "born in the wrong body" and yes, of course we can't magic them into becoming literally the opposite sex, but we can come together as a community and gaslight ourselves into pretending that this individual is whatever sex/gender they claim to be, and we can all mutually agree to NEVER speak about the elephant in the room.

(I don't know what % of these people truly believe the "born in the wrong body" thing, like literally a human with a female soul or brain was born in a male body by accident, and what % know it's a mental illness but don't care.)

They choose to believe that they are doing this for altruistic reasons because they are good people, but really they are doing it for selfish reasons. 1- because saying "sure, sweetie, of course you're a girl"(cough as long as I don't have to personally deal with your sexually confused bullshit cough)"we love you! Of course you're one of us!" is a lot easier than confronting a dude and saying "Honey, you have a mental illness, you will never be a girl, and anyone who says different is just lying to you." Saying stuff like this to a delusional person (who is bigger and stronger than you) can be terrifying, especially when they have the power of the woke police behind them. 2- because they need to virtue signal and protect themselves from the angry mob. and 3- because it doesn't affect them... YET. It doesn't affect them yet. And they don't think it ever will. Most of these women have never seen a trans person IRL in their lives, trans people are just mythical creatures that live on the internet. Like unicorns. Who doesn't want to protect unicorns? They poop rainbows!

I think the best way to respond to straight people is by dropping little pieces of bait and letting them pick it up and ruminate over it slowly so that it feels like they discovered the idea for themselves. For example, gently muse about how "If you think about it, LGB and T are very different because LGB, and Straight too, actually, are just about sexuality, while T is a medical issue. T's can be LGB or S, but does it make sense to lump them all together?" or "Does it make sense for trans activists to say that everyone should examine their genital preferences when 99% of the world is heterosexual? Does this mean we are all really bi and in denial?" or "Would it be weird to have four separate sports divisions to include male and female trans, rather than just split it up by male and female?" Just ask innocuous stuff like this in a curious sort of tone and let them chew on it. Maybe they'll come to the sensible conclusions and maybe they won't. It's like that saying 'You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.'

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most of these women have never seen a trans person IRL in their lives, trans people are just mythical creatures that live on the internet. Like unicorns. Who doesn't want to protect unicorns? They poop rainbows!

Lmao, you're probably right but this is so crazy to me because I've met multiple trans people and they are pretty much as they appear online.... not quite "r/actualtransbians" level though, I'm blessed to have only met a couple transbians in real life.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Alright I sent it

[–]kwallio 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I only kind of skimmed the comments. I guess I am a lot more cynical or possibly paranoid than most of the other commenters. I would guess that for many people the trans rights thing is the perfect ammo to get back at people they've hated for years. Its very easy to attack gays and women for being transphobic. I personally find most trans positions to be pretty misogynistic and homophobic, and their predilictions to act out the sterotypes of both sexes to be pretty regressive. So for some people that hold conservative beliefs the trans brigade is less threatening than feminists and the LGB crowd, so they can jump on the trans train and go after gays, "Karens" etc with glee. ETA: I mean I don't think at all that in the hypothetical situation that they were mean to lgb people in the past is why they're jumping into the trans stuff now, they are the same as they always were just have cover for it now. Its not the guilt, in other words. They're just aholes.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee~=[,,_,,]=^_^= 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What Ian McKellan thing? i keep missing stuff.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

He basically said all gay people need to be allies with trans people.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also do you think that some of these older liberal people (30+) just feel guilty for probably bullying gay people when they were younger and that why they are super pro-trans right activism.

Yes; Some of them were the type to use "Gay" and "Homo" in a derogatory and bullying way when they were younger. But now they are retroactively 'helping', in a purely emotional, unthinking fashion sometimes. Which is as good and probably worse than not doing anything at all. The average disinterested person who is completely out of the loop and has zero time investment of any type in these LGBTQIA2S+ issues are probably doing less harm than the Trans-Rights activists nowadays. This just goes to show that the mass application of guilt perhaps past the time of relevancy and without critical thought can be very counterproductive. Fighting for Trans "Rights" is never gonna erase bad things done in the past and is completely misplaced anyway.

[–]HelloMomo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lastly, how should one ideally respond when straight people try to make homophobia and transphobia into the same thing? Do you think just staying silent the best option? Also in these discussions is it best to try to leave out the fact that you are gay because straight people like to believe that straight opinion is more "objective".

When it comes to people who are super TRA, I'm not sure there's much to be done.

But when it comes to folks who don't know much about the issue and are inclined to go along with popular opinion because they're well-meaning and they don't know any better, I think it is important to talk to them about it. Particularly older liberal straight people. I think that might actually be one of the most tangible things we can do. I think a lot of them feel like, because they're straight, they're not "allowed" to have opinions on these things. They think LGBT is all one big rainbow blob — maybe they're not literally all the same, but they're all alike in the ways that matter, surely. They've probably got a couple gay friends from college, and think that supporting trans stuff is doing right by said gay friends.

And so, as gay and bi people, I think it's really important to explaining to straight friends and family that no, this isn't actually what we want from them as allies, and no, this stuff doesn't help us, and it actually harms us. We need to "give them permission" oppose it.