all 44 comments

[–]supersmokio6420 45 insightful - 5 fun45 insightful - 4 fun46 insightful - 5 fun -  (18 children)

Gay male culture has broadened a lot in the past few years, and not just because “masc 4 masc” energy now looks like internalized homophobia in a more liberated world.

Its homophobic to be too gay now, is it?

[–]fuck_reddit 36 insightful - 9 fun36 insightful - 8 fun37 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

“Please do not resist, you are being liberated.”

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 33 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 2 fun -  (14 children)

I honestly don't understand why masc4masc and femme4femme are so criticized in our own community... Jesus. Just let us be. In the gay community it seems like gay men tell masc4masc they have internalized homophobia; in the lesbian community we're accused of being "shallow" and being fixated with the "femininity performance", which contributes to the women oppression or whatever the fuck.

People, just be happy and fuck whoever you want and no need to give explanations to anyone. THAT is true liberation. We're clearly not there yet. Everyone has different tastes and preferences.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think the problem is that a lot of critics, at least with gay men against masc4masc, are jealous. Either because attractive men are excluding feminine men from their dating pool or because masculine men don't suffer from as much homophobia as feminine men in day to day life because they can "pass" as straight.

I know I'm a bit disappointed every time I see a profile on the dating apps that has an attractive person saying that they don't like properties that I have, but I'm also mature enough to know it isn't a personal attack and that it would be absurd to expect everyone to be attracted to me.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

critics, at least with gay men against masc4masc, are jealous. Either because attractive men are excluding feminine men from their dating pool or because masculine men don't suffer from as much homophobia as feminine men in day to day life because they can "pass" as straight.>

Agree totally, that's a large part of it. You can like a weird kink and no one has an issue, but if you like a certain type of guy then everone's upset.

[–][deleted] 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

There's this mindset (mainly held by people on the woke left) that if you like or perform traditional gender roles you're a piece of shit. They see the underpinnings of gender roles (many of which are products of sexism) and go, 'hey if you support this you're bad'. Yes, sometimes gender roles can be shitty and suffocating, but liking 'traditional' masculinity and femininity doesn't make someone a piece of shit.

TRAs saw LGBs criticizing masc4masc and femme4femme and took it a step further. Now they're saying it's transphobic/homophobic to be gay, and problematic to call yourself gay.

[–]julesburm1891 24 insightful - 3 fun24 insightful - 2 fun25 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

But when Trans people cite traditional gender roles as their identity, the woke cheer them on with blind abandon. The cognitive dissonance is really something.

[–]reluctant_commenter 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nailed it. It's so fundamentally hypocritical.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

100%. Femme4femme gets criticized for being fixated on "feminine performance", and butch/femme relationships also get criticized for "heteronormativity" and "trying to look like straight couples". Myself I am more "futch"/tomboy, and I like women that look like pretty boys. I have been called bisexual by TRAs for only dating other androgynous women. Ffs. Whatever we do we can't win, so just fuck everyone's feelings and be yourself.

[–][deleted] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

when I see non-gays say that butch-femme couples are heteronormative, I start to understand better why we are in the gender mess in the first place. I never realized some of these people really cant figure it out, I thought they were faking it.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I never realized some of these people really cant figure it out, I thought they were faking.

Oh no, they're not faking. Some straight men genuinely can't understand why some lesbians like masc/androgynous women, and the reverse for straight women who can't understand why some gay men like feminine/androgynous men. They're confusing gender presentation with biological sex and sexuality.

The way I've explained it to my straight male friends is, no matter how "manly" a woman dresses, or if she has short hair, when the clothes come off she's still entirely female. It's really that simple.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It’s such an ignorant attitude. I am quite feminine in appearance and never have I ever felt like I was interacting with a man when with a butch woman. Many have more stereotypically feminine’s interests and personalities than me. And I’m attracted to a wide spectrum of women. Because they’re women.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

called bisexual by TRAs for only dating other androgynous women. Ffs.

this is logical in their thinking, because we are supposed to accept sexuality is based on gender.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 6 insightful - 4 fun6 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah. Which is why I used to be "agender nonbinary" and "pansexual" despite only dating women. My teen-20 year old self was so fucking cringey! XD

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

at least you made it out of the matrix lol

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Preach!! Loved this comment haha, that's right, let's just be happy and be with who we wanna be *

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! :) I'm glad you loved it.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 14 insightful - 8 fun14 insightful - 7 fun15 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

Fuck all these gay homophobes and their [squints at smudged writing on hand] attraction to men with manly qualities!

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 16 insightful - 2 fun16 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They also think you’re not really gay or not accepting of yourself if you’re not a stereotype.

[–][deleted] 28 insightful - 2 fun28 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

The overall tone of the article is that 'gay' isn't inclusive enough and we should all be using 'queer' instead. Thoughts so far:

-The author uses 'she' pronouns for Ru Paul without implying that he's anything other than a man in drag, but when Marsha P Johnson goes by she/her pronouns, TRAs twist this around to mean he's a transwoman. So the wokies do know the difference between a drag queen and a transwoman, they just choose to use Marsha for their narrative.

-Apparently the terms “MTF” and “FTM” are now 'clumsy' and too 'genital centric'.

-The author himself admits that 'queer' is just used by people who want to be special:

Its implied rejection of middle-class, heteronormative values has since expanded to include a differentiation from mainstream gays and lesbians who lead lives that are otherwise relatively indistinguishable from straight America.

So fuck 'mainstream' LGBs I guess.

*Also, to add to point 3, he says that gay men's use of the term 'tr---y' isn't good, but that use of the word 'c--t' is a 'gray area'. ....How? How is 'tr---y' horrible but 'c--t' is a gray area? He asserts that 'queer' is no longer a slur to some so that makes it okay. So apparently anything that speaks ill of transwomen must not be said.

-He goes into why 'trans sexual' is falling out of favor, but describes an experience where a trans person calls themselves that term and he asks why:

“Because I’m trans and I have sex?” they replied. “Because I had surgery that made me trans?”

That’s a puckish response, but a fair one. When comfort in your own body is that hard-won, you should be free to make it known as defiantly and publicly as you want.

So what of a woman who's overcome body image issues, self harm, eating disorders, etc? Is her comfort in her body not also hard won? TRAs would tell her she has no right to call herself a woman anymore. But fuck women too.

-I did some digging about this place (I don't live in San Francisco) and I'm seeing stories that say The Stud shut down last year because of the pandemic. If that's true then this is just more of the woke crowd trying to retroactively change things. This falls right in line with their usual LGB erasure and history revisions. Rebranding a gay bar to a 'queer' bar after it's already shut down sounds like more of their tactics.

[–]JulienMayfair 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

So fuck 'mainstream' LGBs I guess.

. . . which includes most LGBs who may be gay, lesbian, or bisexual and just want to get on with their lives without being hassled for it.

Edit: On some days, I start to think that some people deliberately set out to be "freaks" just so that they can then demand that other people change their behavior to accommodate them. In other words, it's just a power trip.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Yup. All this 'queer' activism is undermining decades of work LGBs and allies have done to help people see us as normal, not as freaks. It really highlights the narcissistic nature of it all. They WANT to be seen as freaks.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 17 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

And when the backlash happens and homosexuality becomes taboo again, these same freaks will go back to being heterosexual and call actual gay people freaks.

[–]fuck_reddit 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They already call us freaks, they're not that far from just tossing off the "kweer" mantle in a few years when it's not the current fad...

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It definitely happens. Some people want to be victims because it feeds their ego. So they become assholes, so that when the people around them understandably get offended by their behaviour, the narcissists play the victim. Kinda like Amos Yee, who watches child porn and promotes paedophilia, and cries victimhood when the American government arrests him because he was a prisoner of conscious when he was in Singapore.

[–]hetisachoice 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I resist. Let it stay shut down. If there's a protest, name the time and place.

The q-word will never be acceptable. It will always be hate speech to call gay people abnormal or disordered. I do not give permission to anyone to call me or any other LGB person that anywhere, nor do I need permission from anyone else to claim that authority.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

I’ve skipped over the paragraphs about drag because I don’t like drag.

Harder still is the collective reckoning with how seemingly gender-free terminology is in fact gendered.

Well duh. Language is gendered.

Training yourself not to throw “dude” or “hey, guys” around too loosely in mixed company isn’t easy, but it’s good to see people making the effort.

That’s not good at all. It’s neutral. If you want to stop doing that, fine. But if you want to keep doing that, that’s also fine. I’ll say "dude", "guys" or lads" if I want. What’s bad, however, is people being forced to walk on eggshells around each other so as not to offend some hypersensitive gender freaks.

What were once near-universally called “gay bars” are increasingly referred to as “queer bars,”

Yeah, let’s replace the word "gay" with a homophobic slur.

“Gay” was never going to cover it

It covers it for gay men and spaces that are made for us.

and, in retrospect, feels almost stunning in the way it erases lesbians or femme-identified people from the scene.

Lesbians can have their own spaces. They should be allowed to have their own spaces. And what the fuck does the author mean by "femme-identified people"? Effeminate gay men? They were already covered by the word "gay". Trans identified men? Not my problem.

Even pre-pandemic, there were only 15 true lesbian bars left in America

That’s because TRAs kept colonising lesbian bars and fucking them up beyond recognition. If TRAs and gender freaks left lesbians alone, there wouldn’t be just 15 lesbian bars left in a country of 330 million people.

and their clientele should be welcomed if the remaining spaces are to avoid closure, too.

No. Let their clientele set up their own bars and spaces, and leave lesbians alone.

”Queer” itself has shifted a bit, too. Initially a slur, it was later reclaimed by activists — and it always had an academic and militant bent, as a badge of early HIV/AIDS die-ins and protests.

I liked the Q-word better when it was a slur. Because at least back when it was a slur, we weren’t being talked over by communists, neoliberals and spoilt brats.

Its implied rejection of middle-class, heteronormative values has since expanded to include a differentiation from mainstream gays and lesbians who lead lives that are otherwise relatively indistinguishable from straight America. But its brash energy is gone, worn off by "Queer Eye" and by its appearance in New York Times headlines.

Ironically, it’s usually members of the middle class and the upper classes who are destroying gay, lesbian and bisexual communities from the inside. Poisoning the wells of our communities and making us look bad. Making us look bad so that straight normies won’t want to support us.

English is a relatively nongendered language, at least compared to French and Italian.

That’s a big part of the problem. I wished English had gendered nouns like French and Spanish. Then the Anglosphere wouldn’t be in the mess we're in today.

Gay male culture has broadened a lot in the past few years, and not just because “masc 4 masc” energy now looks like internalized homophobia in a more liberated world.

No. In a more liberated world, nobody would give you grieve over your sexual orientation or your preferences. You would be allowed to have a type. But nowadays gay men who are masculine, and gay men who are only into masculine gay men, are shamed. We’re accused of having "internalised homophobia". Even though we acknowledge our sexuality? What is homophobic about a gay man wanting to be masculine or liking masculine men? Isn’t it homophobic to tell gay men that they have to be effeminate and only date effeminate men?

Peter-Astrid Kane (they/them) is the communications manager for San Francisco Pride and a former editor of SF Weekly.

Of COURSE he uses they them pronouns. Fuck people like him.

[–]fuck_reddit 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I've yet to see any evidence that "q***r" has been reclaimed and how. It's always the exact same "...which has recently been reclaimed by some activists [as an umbrella term]..." Well it hasn't been reclaimed by me, anyone I know in person, or any actual homo/bisexual person I know online. Only straight people LARPing as "LGBTQIA+>:^("

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

That’s right, it’s mostly straight people LARPing as LGBT+ are trying to reclaim the Q word. Straight people who want to abolish gender and destroy society.

[–]reluctant_commenter 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wouldn't mind if trans rights activists actually wanted to abolish sex stereotypes which is called "gender" by some people's definition, the problem is that they are pushing stereotypes on LGB people (and almost everybody else).

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And they push these stereotypes on people so they can have more sex change operations, because big pharma wants money.

[–]hetisachoice 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

I’ve skipped over the paragraphs about drag because I don’t like drag.

I can take that one step further: I hate clothes altogether. If it wasn't for the threat of people literally freezing their butts off, I'd ban them altogether.

Yeah, let’s replace the word "gay" with a homophobic slur.

I will use hate speech to describe anyone who uses hate speech to describe me. Actually civilized nations criminalize this word.

[–]usehername 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The criminalization of words is absolutely ridiculous.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I can take that one step further: I hate clothes altogether. If it wasn't for the threat of people literally freezing their butts off, I'd ban them altogether.

LOL hetisachoice you could set up a nudist colony in a warm climate. People have done it before, b/c some other people hate clothes too!

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

🤣 I've said it before, will say it again... living up to that flair!

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL thanks Reluctant! I appreciate it.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I personally like clothes. Well, it depends on the clothes. I wouldn’t mind living in a country where all the men are shirtless.

[–]our_team_is_winning 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yours is the best response post I've read in weeks (among a sea of great posts) -- I wish you could do this as a video (and Peter-Astrid Kane had to watch and write an essay afterward on the valid points raised by gay men!)

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks. I don’t intend on doing videos though. I don’t want to get doxed. Anyway, glad you liked my response.

[–]julesburm1891 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

there’s more to drag than female impersonation.

Isn’t the entire point of drag to dress as a ridiculous parody of the opposite sex and be goofy? Stop tying to act like this is on par with composing symphonies or performing surgery.

”Queer” itself has shifted a bit, too.

So, if random dudebros start calling you queer, you’d be cool with it? Or, if a conservative commentator calls a “queer activist” queer, it won’t be hate speech that gets his channel demonetized?

English is a relatively non-gendered language, at least compared to French or Italian...So even back when gender was understood to a be male-female, either-or thing, Eurocentric linguists used the term to describe structures in language

  1. Gender in linguistics has nothing to do with sex. Please take an introductory linguistics class.
  2. The use of gender to mean sex is a 20th century invention.
  3. English is not a gendered language. Recognizing that both sexes exist and having a word for such things is not what constitutes a gendered language.
  4. Just to be clear, a fair amount of European languages are not gendered. Just off the top of my head: Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Hungarian, and Estonian. Stop pretending “gendered language” is some horrible European colonialist ideal.

[–]grixit 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

So sad how so much of what used to be reasonable language must now be avoided for fear of doing terrible damage. It's like having a condition that causes someone to constantly acquire new deadly allergies.

[–]Dromedary 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Wow and yikes, that article was a piece of shit from Hell. It just grated my brain with its stupidity, its arrogance, it's numbskull blathery horrible writing. That just goes on and on. Other commenters have done a great job responding to its endless idiocies. It just affirms my feeling that I want NADA to do with these preening dingbats and their bossy idiot garbage . There's a real, monstrous dismissal and hatred for gay men and lesbians coming from these CREEPS who've just taken over everything. Fuck these people. (Oh, and I learned nothing about The Stud's closing, that was the premise for this derpy vomit. Lol, the dizzy twerp just gassed on and forgot the topic. Typing with one hand.)

Edit: WTF? I thought the Stud was rebranding itself- NOT JUST FOR HOMOS ANYMORE! - but Google tells me it "closed permanently" in 2020 because Covid. So what the hell is this bellend even talking about? The article's from 2 days ago,- it's even stupider than I thought!

[–]drop_thetea 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Screw this. That word was always hate speech and it still is.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

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