LifestyleThoughts on Drag Queens & Drag Kings?

submitted by PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 from self.LGBDropTheT

Article: The Psychology of Drag

Drag queens, otherwise known as “female impersonators," are most typically gay cisgender men (though there are many drag queens of varying sexual orientations and gender identities) who perform and entertain on stage in nightclubs and bars.

Drag kings, on the other hand, are just the opposite of drag queens — male impersonators. Although it’s unclear exactly why, drag kings are less common in gay communities, and are also less visible in popular culture and in research on drag. Even less common, are Bio queens — or cisgender women who dress in the style of drag queens.

Haven't seen this topic pop up yet, and was curious what regular LGB people thought about Drag Queens or Drag Kings.

So without further ado...

Questions

1. Do you view Drag in a positive, negative, or neutral light? [Please explain]

2. Who is Drag for? (Ex. Drag queens are ONLY for gay/MtF trans/straight men or boys. Drag kings are ONLY for lesbian/FtM trans/straight women or girls)

  • 2a. Should children be able to do perform for Drag?

3. Are you interested in Drag or do you perform Drag?

4. What are your thoughts on Drag Queens popularity and Drag Kings barely being heard of?

Bonus Question

  • Any additional thoughts? (On drag or comments on the article?)

As always, if any more questions pop up, I'll edit this post.

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[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

About drag kings. First you have to remember the unspoken views society has on feminine vs masculine. Being feminine is degrading. Being female is degrading. Imagine a masculine manly man. Now imagine him in pink lacy panties and a church lady hat. Instant comedy! Imagine a feminine girly woman, imagine her in a jock strap and a police man hat. That's at best sexy, at worst weird and creepy.

For years drag queens have gotten away with it because they hide behind the shield of comedy. It's always "relax! It's a joke!" A giant, lumbering, 250lbs man in a dress is hilarious. A thin, skinny, short woman in a fake mustache and suit is just confusing. Very few drag kings can pull it off, and they don't use the comedy route. That route is not available for them in the first place. They do it by being sexy (not male-gaze pandering sexy, but sexy for a woman's eye) or by being cool, or having a certain kind of charisma. Drag king and drag queen are really two completely separate things.

Also keep in mind that it's extremely hard for women to make it in stand-up comedy too. Our society just does not want to find women funny unless they are fat, old, or unattractive. And then it's a "laugh at her" situation rather than a "laugh with her' situation.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Many years back when I was transitioning(FtM), I looked into Drag Kings...to help myself look even more "male" and read about binders etc. I used to think it was "cool" back then.

When I looked at Drag Queens, it made me extremely uncomfortable. It's not the same as just being a regular super feminine man like Miles Jai[gay youtuber] or Pierre XO[straight youtuber]. It looks1 over2 the [top3](cdn.com/thumbor/VBhd85BUwz77PonNkAyhlyXkm28=/0x120:395x416/1200x800/filters:focal(0x120:395x416)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/34216757) and ridiculous4. It reminds me of the book The Hunger Games with the rich people dressing like that lol.

First you have to remember the unspoken views society has on feminine vs masculine. Being feminine is degrading. Being female is degrading.

That was also part of the reason I wanted to transition back then, in my culture, women are seen as beneath men and while I was locked in the house, my brothers could go or do whatever they wanted to. Apart from that had "traditionally masculine" hobbies and dressed "like a boy" as some may say. People used to confuse me as a boy many times before I even knew what the hell transitioning was.

Anyways...about drag, I was neutral but now I'd have to say I'm leaning towards negative view. I would have a stronger negative view if it was something affecting me a bit more(such as the T movement).

[–]motss-pb 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Do you view Drag in a positive, negative, or neutral light?

Neutral. I know many GC people hate it and view it as woman-face, but I disagree. I think drag treats gender as the farce that it is. Men can wear dresses and makeup if their heart desires it, but the word "drag" acknowledges that they are still men. There's no rule against men performing in burlesque shows, unless we're to believe that burlesque and ballroom pageants are women-only activities. But then we're back to prescribing acceptable gendered behavior for each sex.

  1. Who is Drag for?

I don't know if there are any official definitions, but I consider "drag" to be any person dressing up as the opposite sex for entertainment. To me, a "drag queen" is specifically a gay man in drag as a woman.

2a. Should children be able to do perform for Drag?

Children should not be performing drag. Yeah, children do perform in dance recitals, plays, etc, but I think drag performance is more for adults.

  1. Are you interested in Drag or do you perform Drag?

Never performed. Not interested.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Do you view Drag in a positive, negative, or neutral light?

Negative light. If drag culture wasn’t associated with the gay community and was just a niche, then I’d be ambivalent towards drag. In fact, I’m sure there are some drag queens who are cool. But I don’t see how a man in a dress and a wig helps society to accept gay people. In fact, when I first discovered that I was gay, I was freaked out because I did not want to be associated with cross dressers. Even to this day, where I’m perfectly comfortable with my sexual orientation, I still find cross dressing in public somewhat repulsive. Especially when it happens in front of a child. I don’t know why I find drag repulsive, but I just do. But the fact that it’s associated with the gay community, it makes me feel weird. When I am in a gay bar, I am polite and keep my discomfort around drag queens and drag kings to myself, but I wished that drag was just a niche that involved straight people as well as gay and bisexual people so that it wouldn’t be so prevalent and would not be "this gay thing".

Who is Drag for?

Well, the point of drag is that someone is acting as an over-the-top caricature of the opposite sex. So yeah, drag queens are for men and drag kings are for women. If a trans woman dresses up as Chuck Norris for a living I suppose you could call him a drag king to be polite; technically, he’s just an actor.

Should children be able to do perform for Drag?

Absolutely not. Drag culture is completely inappropriate for children. Drag is more than just cross dressing, there are a lot of sexual components to it. Parents of child drag queens should be ashamed of themselves. The parents of this poor Desmond kid should be arrested for child abuse.

Are you interested in Drag or do you perform Drag?

No and no. I wouldn’t even date a drag queen. I suppose I would be fine with a boyfriend who wears fishnets, high heels or tights in private, as long as he doesn’t do it in front of children or in public. But no, I wouldn’t date a drag queen.

What are your thoughts on Drag Queens popularity and Drag Kings barely being heard of?

I normally don’t envy lesbians because of how badly affected their community has been by woke culture compared to the gay male community. But I do envy the fact that lesbians don’t care so much about drag. Then again, a lot of lesbians find drag queens offensive, so on the subject of drag, we both have it bad. I just wished that drag wasn’t associated with the gay community. Yes, some gay men would still be drag queens, but at least it wouldn’t only be gay men. I get the feeling that straight liberal women are the biggest fans of drag culture, though maybe I am wrong. But if that's true, it might explain why drag queens are much more common than drag kings.

Any additional thoughts?

Drag culture should just be a niche thing. Any man can be a drag queen and any woman can be a drag king. It shouldn’t be anymore associated with the gay community than rock music. Also, have you guys ever heard of "faux kings"? It’s where a man dresses up like an exaggerated caricature of men. The equivalent for women is "faux queen". But I find this who "faux" stuff to be pointless. If I take my shirt off, wear a pair of camouflage trousers and a crucifix, speak in a fake Russian accent and get up on a horse and get paid for doing that, I’m not a "faux king"; I’m just being an actor.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I don’t know why I find drag repulsive, but I just do. But the fact that it’s associated with the gay community, it makes me feel weird. When I am in a gay bar, I am polite and keep my discomfort around drag queens and drag kings to myself, but I wished that drag was just a niche that involved straight people as well as gay and bisexual people so that it wouldn’t be so prevalent and would not be "this gay thing".

Maybe this explains your feelings?: drag's association with gay people implies that they're somehow "really" the opposite sex-- the familiar "male-attracted = female, female-attracted = male" false-equivalency. So, according to this assumption, it's "natural" for gay men to be viewed as women (= drag queens), and lesbians to be viewed as men (= drag kings). Both of which, of course, are all kinds of creepy/insulting. And that might be what you're reacting to.

Also, you could be picking up on another manifestation of this phenomenon: that drag developed from cross-dressing, which was a "gay thing" not because homosexuals found it fun, but because they found it necessary. As a survival strategy. If a gay guy could "pass" as a woman, then he could potentially have a romantic/sex life without being arrested, committed to a mental institution, and/or violently assaulted. Same for lesbians "passing" as men. So cross-dressing (and thus drag) as a gay tradition is a product, and consequently a reminder, of gay oppression. Which can't help but leave a bad taste in my mouth (and probably yours as well).

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

You’re right. Now that I’ve read your comment, I realise why I don’t like drag culture. I get incredibly offended when people treat gay men as if we're women. Thankfully, I’ve never been treated as if I’m a woman, but I will be sure to let anyone who treats me like that know that I don’t appreciate it at all. And your explanation for why homosexuals used to cross dress makes a lot of sense. Survival, not fetish. I’m glad I live in a country where homosexuality is accepted by most of society so that I will never have to wear a dress. In fact, your reply has also explained why I get irate whenever gay men refer to each other using female pronouns.

Thank you for your response. It was helpful.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You're so welcome, Warrior :) I'm glad to have helped.

Yeah, I'd always been uneasy with drag culture, but couldn't really articulate why; in fact, it was becoming trans-critical that finally clarified things for me. That what bugged me was how it trades on gender roles, and the creepy implications of that for both women and homosexuals (gay men in particular).

The thing is, I wanted to like drag, in a way... both as a Good Little Liberal, and as someone with an abiding interest in makeup, fashion, and glamour. But that underlying misogyny/homophobia turned me off. So I've been thinking... would it be possible to have something like drag, but without that creepy element? Where it's totally decoupled from "looking like a woman" (or rather a caricature thereof), or being gay? And is, instead, simply about ANYONE-- of either sex and any sexual orientation-- who enjoys creating a glamorous look for themselves? Expressing their creativity with clothes and makeup and hairstyles and stuff? And men could do it without any sense that they couldn't look like men, or really weren't men? Or that homosexuality had anything to do with it?

I mean, I know that you probably wouldn't care for it even so-- just sounds like this isn't your kind of thing-- but am I right in thinking that such a phenomenon wouldn't repulse you, the way drag does? Since it'd be missing the whole "gay men = women" aspect? Cuz there would be no connection to homosexuality, or gay culture? So YOU aren't implicated, as a gay man; like anyone else, you could take it or leave it. Which is as it should be.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wanted to like drag as well. Just to be open minded. But I couldn’t. I find it creepy, homophobic and degrading. And yeah, some don’t behave the way drag queens act. My mother and my sister don’t act like that. None of my aunts or female cousins act like that. So I can see why a lot of women would find drag queens offensive.

Now a man dressing up as a woman for comedic purposes like with Monty Python, I’m fine with that. It can be entertaining. But the actors dress up as ordinary women. And there’s nothing sexual or degrading. It’s just lighthearted comedy.

I’m not into makeup or fashion. But it’s cool if other people are. If people want to do beauty pageants were they dress as the opposite sex but there’s nothing sexual, freaky or obnoxious about it then I don’t mind it.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

  1. I know very little about drag, but I currently view it in a negative light becuase it looks quite misogynistic in the case of queens and potentially misandrystic in the case of kings.

  2. Drag is for whoever tf finds stereotyping people entertaining

2a. HELL NO! It is way too sexualized for children to be at all exposed to it, let alone performing it. Remember that drag story time when the dude flashed his junk to children because his costume was so oversexualized? If anyone can so twisted as to think that such an oversexualized outfit is fit to wear in front of grade schoolers, then drag needs to be kept as far away from children as possible.

  1. no

  2. probably a remnant of a patriarchal culture where making fun of women was seen as funny but making fun of men was threatening dudes' fragile egos

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

On your comment about drag culture and children, I remembered the case of the drag queen who flashed his crotch in front of children. He should have been on a list for that stunt. There are even paedophiles who have used drag to be able to read in front of children. It’s bad enough that drag queens dress like monsters that give young children - who cannot process reality that well - nightmares, but to have them be sexual opposite children is just adding insult to injury. Or injury to insult, more like. Children cannot process sex or sexuality. This is why we have age of consent laws and regulations against anatomically correct characters in children’s television programmes. And in those photographs of drag queen story hours, you can see that the children in these images are uncomfortable at best and freaked out at worst. It’s the liberal parents and the liberal teachers who are enjoying this, too woke to realise that the children are upset. Or they blame the children being upset on homophobia, when the reality is, the children are being sat in front of a freak show.

And yes, drag queens are misogynistic in a way. But there is a homophobic element to it as well. You have gay men getting paid to degrade themselves in such a way by perpetuating stereotypes that gay men are "not real men" and a lot of straight people find this entertaining.

[–]hetisachoice 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The T took most of the fun out of it.

[–]DollMeat-eating Vagitarian 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I never had a problem with Drag. These people minded their business and enjoyed their lives. It's the extremist trans stuff that's on some other shit.

[–]hetisachoice 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's reasonable enough to me.

[–]GConly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I'm British.

We have a centuries long tradition of men dressing as women for comedy purposes, and all of ours that make onto TV are razor sharp tongued comedians in a role. They don't not go OTT the way some of the American ones do on drag race.

Fine line between mocking women and using it as an artform for entertainment or to enhance a comic act. Easily overstepped. Some of them look like clowns and are just being misogynist dicks.

So pro some (go Lily and Edna). Anti others.

Also, if you go back to the seventies it's standard to see male comedians playing female characters in their sketch shows. It's meant to look ridiculous. Think Monty python.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Fine line between mocking women and using it as an artform for entertainment or to enhance a comic act.

That reminds me of Kabuki Theater. It was an art form for entertainment which was female-only, but women were banned so only men could perform kabuki.

Would you say in the UK that people mostly dress in drag for comedic(and/or misogynistic) purposes? Or still a bit of a mix of what you mentioned prior?

Think Monty python.

A good classic! Love the movie Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

Edit: word

[–]GConly 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Mostly on stage it's for comedy. We have such a huge tradition of it, what with pantomime dames etc it's pretty well accepted.

If you watch drag race UK you get a pretty decent idea of how the onstage scene is. You get nowhere without being evilly funny here.

No Fifi's or Willems here.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don’t consider men dressing as women in comedies like in Monty Python to be drag by default. If it’s not done in a sexual way, then it’s not drag. But I’m fine when Monty Python and other sketches do it because it’s not treated as a "gay thing". And like you said, it’s not ever the top.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

OMG I just remembered Benny Hill!!!

(Caveat: I haven't seen The Benny Hill Show in over 28-30 years. Child-me found it piss-in-my-pants-level funny. I wonder if Adult-me would find it funny also?)

What do British people think of him?

[–]GConly 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Only us old ones remember.

I used to laugh at him as a kid, now I now how he used to get his female employees to wank him off, I can't watch it without cringing now.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

1. Do you view Drag in a positive, negative, or neutral light? [Please explain]

Negative. I think it's a sexist caricature (and no it's not "making fun of sexism", the punchline is "haha look how catty and annoying women can be") that can backfire against real homosexual males because it apparently only takes a few celebrity "drag queens" for people to think we're all faux-feminine, "bitchy", whiny annoying performers.

Drag king seems less offensive as it doesn't seem to be as hateful nor does it get lesbians/etc automatically associated with it, but drag kings are nowhere near as heard of and I'm sure it's no mystery as to why. Honestly it's just more proof that drag queens are a sexist concept.

2. Who is Drag for? (Ex. Drag queens are ONLY for gay/MtF trans/straight men or boys. Drag kings are ONLY for lesbian/FtM trans/straight women or girls)

No one? No really, it doesn't matter. I'd feel better about real women being "drag queens" because then

2a. Should children be able to do perform for Drag?

Er... no. Drag (queens) is highly sexualized and also rooted in sexism, these are things absolutely NOT suitable for children.

3. Are you interested in Drag or do you perform Drag?

No, unless you're one of those idiots who thinks merely wearing eyeliner or wearing clothes from the "women's" section counts as "drag" (hint: it doesn't.)

4. What are your thoughts on Drag Queens popularity and Drag Kings barely being heard of?

Already explained, it's due to sexism, people think it's funny to mock women because society is pretty much universally sexist in some form, but mocking men (even in a less offensive way than drag queens in my opinion) is not as acceptable and will hurt too many feelings.

[–]censorshipment 5 insightful - 8 fun5 insightful - 7 fun6 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

I grew in the 80s and 90s admiring gay men who did drag... but that changed when I became a radfem during college. Shit has made me cringe for the past 20 years.

I'm not answering the other questions.

[–]our_team_is_winning 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

  1. Negative. Totally negative. If that's supposed to be an imitation of women, they're failing miserably. Real women aren't a bit like that.
  2. I have a straight female friend who is fascinated by drag and watches tons online and has even attended shows. She thinks their cattiness is funny. But I think the target audience is just each other. Drag queens seem to enjoy competing with other drag queens.
  3. Zero interest.
  4. A woman's impersonation of a man, among women, is usually belching and scratching. Maybe a Drag King's imitation of a man is more life-like, so there's no over-the-top comedy there?

[–]emptiedriver 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I always used to like drag, considered it a way to mock social expectations and norms more than any people themselves, and thought the rise of drag king culture in the 90s was a great addition to the much more familiar and long standing drag queen culture that I knew not just from club performance but well established in comedy as well. I took it all as a way to reject society's limitations and play with other options, and was disappointed when people began to take it seriously and instead of suggesting that we didn't need to stick to old fashioned roles in real life, adopting alternate roles with a new level of commitment. I had friends who had been exploring drag who then began to identify with their drag roles, and transitioned to the opposite sex. They continue to live in these roles, and I cannot understand it. I thought we were just having fun, but they think it is real.

So, I don't really know what to think of drag anymore. Like I thought we were just having a beer and then they've become a drunk...

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So this will be somewhat of an ignorant opinion. I'm not steeped in gay culture nor have been exposed to much drag. However, I feel that might actually work in my favor in terms of "figuring out what drag means."

  1. Do you view Drag in a positive, negative, or neutral light?

Sharpen your pitchforks. To me, drag is a sort of reaction formation of gender-non-conforming gay men who, due to societal discrimination, suppress their feminine aspects. Thus, I'm neutral on it.

From Wikipedia on reaction formation:

In psychoanalytic theory, reaction formation (German: Reaktionsbildung) is a defense mechanism in which emotions and impulses which are anxiety-producing or perceived to be unacceptable are mastered by exaggeration of the directly opposing tendency.

It is the parodic nature of drag that leads me primarily to this conclusion. (And is also the reason why Judith Butler, the anchor of Queer Theory adores drag. "Revel in the delights and anxieties...") Obviously, it's a thing that gay men do, but stop and think about that. Why predominantly gay men? What's different about some gay men from straight men aside from object choice? GNC, but it's taken to quite the extreme in drag, isn't it?

Also, I'll beat up on psychoanalysis all day long, but some models are useful and all that.