all 18 comments

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 37 insightful - 21 fun37 insightful - 20 fun38 insightful - 21 fun -  (8 children)

because the community has now been opened up by tucutes, the very unrealistic and paranoid things terfs and other transphobes said about us are actually coming true.

AHAHAHAHAAAA I love it! These people are finally starting to understand that once you take LGB's ability away to say "you can't sit with us" you also take away your own ability to say that. SO enjoy having lunch with the uWu-gendered attack-helicopter catgirl, or else you're a transphobe!

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 28 insightful - 1 fun28 insightful - 0 fun29 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I honestly hate this hatred TRAs have for women. Just the fact they have a slur for women and not for men reflects how misogynistic AND cowards for not facing actual transphobes they are

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 26 insightful - 5 fun26 insightful - 4 fun27 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

They hate us cuz they ain't us!

But seriously, you have a great point! Why don't they have a slur-word for the literal transpobe MEN who are the actual people who are literally killing them? Literally. How many terfs have killed trans people? Zero. (I mean besides murdering them by denying access to our vaginas, of course.)

[–]reluctant_commenter 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Completely agree. Even plays out among elites-- they will go after JK Rowling all day but barely even mention Elon Musk, if at all, and he is openly mocking of the whole 1000+ genders thing. Lol.

[–]8bitgay 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

People love calling things slippery slopes. And sure, sometimes they are slippery slopes, but sometimes they're just reasonable analysis of patterns.

[–]bopomofodojo 19 insightful - 2 fun19 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

"Slippery slope" is only a fallacy when the logical leaps are nonsensical.

Otherwise, it's just foreseeing reasonable outcomes.

[–]fuck_reddit 16 insightful - 4 fun16 insightful - 3 fun17 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

I call it “the consequences of actions”

[–]reluctant_commenter 33 insightful - 2 fun33 insightful - 1 fun34 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

The transmedicalist view is homophobic and sexist-- they believe that a man can have the "brain of a woman" (debunked by research, this is pseudoscience) and need to "transition" (you cannot actually change sex; you will always be pretending to be the other sex, at best). The "tucute" view is bigoted and anti-science in a myriad of other ways, but-- one bigoted, pseudoscientific ideology begat another. They're both homophobic belief systems.

I am regularly struck by the parallels between far-right religious groups and far-left transgender ideology. Watching different transgender sects eat each other is like watching fundies and Catholics going at it... like, I don't believe in any of your "mystery of the Holy Trinity" or "mystery of gender identity" BS, lmao.

Hope this helps some of the transmed transgender people find their way out.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

they believe that a man can have the "brain of a woman" (debunked by research, this is pseudoscience)

Nope. We've got the brainscans that show some people do have neuroanatomy that does not match genitalia or chromosomes. It is just that most trans people today are not this way.

10.1007/s10508-011-9805-6 https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2Fs10508-011-9805-6.pdf

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Nope. Certain regions of the brain vary slightly b/w homosexual and heterosexual males, and the "feminization" theory holds true when comparing homosexual and heterosexual trans-identified males "transwomen". It does not apply to female attracted MtFs. You're misrepresenting the very study you linked to. This part is from the closing paragraphs:

The present study does not support the dogma that [male-to-female transsexuals] have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain’’although that statement should have been restricted to refer to heterosexual male-to-female transsexuals only

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Nope. You misunderstood where Cantor was going there. The author, Cantor, is citing a different paper by Savic and Arver, which is where you quote-quoted from, trying to point out two things. One, Savic and Arver were not precise, in Cantor's words:

although that statement should have been restricted to refer to heterosexual male-to-female transsexualsonly.

RE: what you quoted.

AND

Also meriting emphasis is that—although these data disconfirm that the heterosexual type has a feminized brain pattern—the data nonetheless confirm that heterosexual transsexuals have a brain structure distinct from that of typical (nontranssexual) persons

Which is to try and indicate an anatomical difference for AGP, albeit not one that is sexually dimorphic. Because Savic and Arver found neuroanatomical differences between AGP and heterosexual men. Sexual interests come from the brain. Pedophiles, for instance, have very different brains.

Nobody is trying to say that AGP have a feminized brain, except for AGP. The data don't support this. Casual observation of them does not support this. They're very masculine, in fact, they can be incredibly masculine in interests, which should be a bit of a starting point for any further aetiological work.

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I re-read the paper, and you are right, I didn't see they quoted an earlier study. That was my mistake. But, I have some other issues with the take away of this study, b/c I'm not convinced it is unambiguous proof of "brain sex".

  1. This is a fairly small group of people, both within each group and as a whole, and a lot of different factors could affect differences in the brain that would be picked up on an MRI.

  2. They contrast the male controls (heterosexual, non transsexual) w/ the female controls (same) to come away with what they think is sexual dimorphism in the brain. What if what they're seeing, but misinterpreting, is evidence of sexual orientation in the brain, rather than sex itself? Have there been studies like these, but with homosexual female group to compare against the heterosexual females, and likewise for homosexual (non-transsexual) and heterosexual (non-transsexual males)? To actually be able to differentiate what they're seeing?

  3. What is your evidence that pedophiles have different brains? Even if differences appear on an MRI, how can the researchers know if those differences are innate, or result from exposure/behavior of the participants? If they are studying inmates, which is what I'm guessing, that would also complicate matters, since prison can also change peoples' brains, and so can violence.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have some other issues with the take away of this study, b/c I'm not convinced it is unambiguous proof of "brain sex".

Sure. I don't think it's reasonable to say that there's a neuron somewhere deep inside everybody's head that's firing and informing their consciousness: "You're a man," or, "you're a woman."

No, instead, "brain sex" is styles of cognition, which parent children associate with more as a child, whether they prefer playmates of their same sex or opposite sex, dolls or trucks, what their general interests are. As an adult, what career one would choose.

These are due to hormonal organization of the brain during neonatal development.

These interests, in part, are then socially moderated into what gender one perceives themselves as, and when it does not match what's between the legs: gender identity disorder.

Otherwise you just have a gender-non-conforming child or adult. Or a "brain sex" that does match what's between the legs, you have a gender-conforming child or adult.

Thinking of it as a sort of intersex condition may be helpful.

Which isn't to say this is the mechanism for all of transexualism, because it's not. It used to be the most frequent one, but stopped being so in about 1990 when autogynephilia took the lead, and recently ROGD/Adolescent-onset is prevalent as well.

What if what they're seeing, but misinterpreting, is evidence of sexual orientation in the brain, rather than sex itself?

A reasonable question. I don't think we're finding on MRI the difference between non-transsexual homosexual men and non-transsexual heterosexual men for instance--to figure out what part of the brain causes sexual orientation. I'm sure somebody's looked for it, but I don't have any research handy; people tend to not publish negative results. The news would be all over this if a difference did show up. LeVay looked at brains in a limited study, but he needed dissection because MRI didn't have the resolving power in the area of interest. Brains-for-science from desirable subjects are hard to come by.

Female homosexuality, (and female sexuality in general,) is vastly understudied, but for what we have, it's not entirely dissimilar to male homosexuality. If anything, female homosexuality is more like male homosexuality than it is female hetero- or bi- sexuality, which sounds like an odd way to put it, but there's nuance in that statement.

What is your evidence that pedophiles have different brains?

Well if you'll let me over-rely on one researcher, because they've done the most work there:

http://www.jamescantor.org/research.html

Michael Seto would also be a good researcher to look at, I don't think I've read nearly anything by him, but this is his area as well.

Even if differences appear on an MRI, how can the researchers know if those differences are innate, or result from exposure/behavior of the participants?

Traumatic brain injury in childhood has been investigated as a potential cause of pedophilia, but not every pedophile reports it, of course. I don't know the relative numbers, but I don't think it's longer an area of research.

If they are studying inmates, which is what I'm guessing, that would also complicate matters, since prison can also change peoples' brains, and so can violence.

Good question. I don't know what cohort in these studies are non-offenders (probably not) or have not served prison sentences for something else, or if they were studied prior to prison, or if heterosexual controls were taken from the same prison population--which any reasonable researcher would certainly do.

There are other markers in pedophiles too, like shorter in height.

Not super-familiar with pedophilia, sorry.

[–]reluctant_commenter 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Let me be more specific. Some trans people claim that they must transition because they are (e.g.) a man who has the "brain of a woman." This is mistaken for several reasons:

  • The evidence that there is that suggests that some men might have brains relatively more similar to women's than expected-- applies to homosexual men. When you take a trans sample and compare it to a non-trans sample, and control for homosexuality, the effect disappears.

  • It is incorrect to say "the brain of a woman" because that's an exaggeration of the strength of findings in these studies. Some men do have a pattern of differences in their brain structures, relative to other men, that is similar to some of the overall average differences in brain structures between men and women... but that is not the same thing as saying, "This guy has a woman's brain," that is a gross inflation of the evidence.

That is just from what I have read. If you have seen something updated on this topic, I'd be curious to hear it.

edit: Reading through your responses to GoValidate Yourself. I think this is an important point to keep in mind:

No one is trying to say that AGP have a feminized brain, except for AGP. The data don't support this. Casual observation of them does not support this.

I agree and that makes sense. I still think your initial statement is misleading. You said:

We've got the brainscans that show some people do have neuroanatomy that does not match genitalia or chromosomes. It is just that most trans people today are not this way.

Brain scans that do not match the typical patterns corresponding to specific sex (genitalia/chromosomes). That does not disprove my previous claim, which is that: Some trans people claim that they literally have an opposite-sex brain in their head, based on the studies described. I totally agree there are cases where people have patterns of brain differences that go against the patterns you'd expect them to have based on their sex. The TRA claim takes those studies, misinterprets them, and then dials up the intensity of the claimed effect.

My initial wording might've been misleading, though.

[–][deleted] 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Some trans people claim that they must transition because they are (e.g.) a man who has the "brain of a woman."

Right, some making this claim have no personal basis for it, even though it may be true of another kind of person. And there's a whole bunch of different reasons why that claim is being made.

A study just came out on ROGD/Adolescent-onset if you're interested: https://t.co/daLAiNGkLa?amp=1

Honestly, I skimmed that one, but AFAIK it's as you'd expect.

But anyhow, you can see that this is still a point of interest--the brain.

[–]reluctant_commenter 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks! Will take a look.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're so close to getting it it's honestly infuriating that they don't.