DiscussionDoes anyone else feel weird describing themselves as their sexual orientation, because the words have become so watered-down now?

submitted by reluctant_commenter from self.LGBDropTheT

Like for me, most people I see/hear using the word "lesbian" are 1. men (usually autogynephilic), or 2. women who say they are also attracted to men or who have a male partner who identifies as a woman. I thought I would get more used to the word "lesbian" over time but it still feels gross, in a new and different way than it felt during my religious/conservative upbringing.

Add to that, I have met so few lesbians IRL that it is hard for me to overcome this connotation with another that is based in experience with people that I've met.

Any other L/G/B people feel the same way? I was reading a comment from one of our UK users suggesting that "gay" is not synonymous with "queer" over there as it often is here in the US, so perhaps there are some regional differences.

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[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Yes. I try not to use the word "gay" (unless I'm not being serious) because to me it looks more like an "aesthetic" than anything else.

But I also don't talk about my sexuality at all IRL, so, I can't relate there.

[–]hetisachoice 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I demand people say it, spell it, and never reduce it to a single letter in an acronym or I ghost them.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

No, I will just laugh at anyone who proves they don't know what they mean if it comes up. Not gonna play, not gonna give in, not gonna validate this nonsense.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

A good way to go about it. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah...I've dealt with a few of these narcissistic nutters directly. One of the ways they win is by mortifying and shocking people with their behavior. That puts other people into a defensive, reactive posture, when they actually already own the turf in question (truth, reality, facts). But abusers like this and the number of people they can manipulate into being their groupies inspire people to forget, in the same manner that it becomes horrifying to lose "friends" because one of these conducted a smear campaign against you. Been there, done that, facts remain what they are no matter how much these people assault them, and they only become even more dangerous when we give in to validating their twisted bullshit. And responding as if we have new things to explain or prove or navigate about simple, old terms is one way of giving them power.

So yeah, the answer is to not leave the plausible reality to engage these people in their delusional one. The outrage they inspire is the bait.

In other words, maintain firm boundaries. That is pretty standard procedure for encounters with people with Cluster B personality disorders. They can tantrum all they want but you don't give in and start letting them call the shots about reality or what you will put up with.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Hear, hear!

[–]DummDick_998634230 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Everytime I describe my sexuality, I just say: "I'm attracted to guys" instead of "I'm gay" because the similar reasons to you :L

I don't want people to think I'm a "proud gay" or "queer" type. Then again, maybe I'm looking at it too deeply, I tend to over-analyze/predict how people react and I want the most predictable results as possible.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't want people to think I'm a "proud gay" or "queer" type. Then again, maybe I'm looking at it too deeply, I tend to over-analyze/predict how people react and I want the most predictable results as possible.

I totally do that, too. I also don't want to give off the "I'm qUeEr!" vibes. I wish having a minority sexual orientation were normalized and not perceived as either positive or negative, so that I might be judged not on the basis of my sexual orientation but of my character.

This, though, is the opposite of what trans rights activists want. They want glorification of being "othered" and "weird" and pin the label of "weird/other" on minority sexual orientations.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

I feel that by describing myself asexual even if it's truly a fitting description of my lack of sexual orientation and calling myself straight just not to be labeled with these blue-haired Tumblr they/thems just wouldn't feel right. I'm not attracted to men nor women... no matter how hard I try. Also it's annoying that asexuality is watered-down with the whole spectrum thing...

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That sounds really frustrating. It seems to be something unique to the "asexual community" (I use quotes because often that phrase just seems to mean "queer community") in the sense that I've never heard someone go "lesbian-ness is a spectrum!" in the way people go "asexuality is a spectrum!" even with all the other lesbian erasure going on.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

To me "asexual community" really feels more like "queer community" indeed. If I seek info about asexuality then it will be always posted by the queer types into non-binarism, transgenderism without dysphoria and more. Any other accounts which are anti-queer but pro-LGB usually reject asexuality as orientation and consider it a mental disorder or a physical issue. To be fair this makes me doubt the validity of asexuality when I see this but I can't help finding asexuality really fitting my experience and it's not caused by anything - no sickness, no meds, no mental disorders... It'd be easier to reject it as another queer Tumblr label if I was anything but asexual. Maybe I'm just being tested, hahaha. If I was non-ace I'd probably agree with sentiments it's a mental disorder or something... thanks to queer Tumblr girls going by they/them pronouns, who think you don't need dysphoria to be trans and being gay is transphobic...

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Aside from those who claim to be asexual because they don't want to have a sexuality (I'll admit that I've thought being truly 100% asexual would make life easier), it isn't completely absurd to think that some people just aren't interested in sex. They would simply see men the way lesbians do and see women the way gay men do. The problem comes when someone who just wants to be quirky acts like it's some major plot point that they don't want to screw anyone or worse yet, are attracted to people but then pretend to be asexual because they don't want to have to deal with the implications of being attracted to people.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

If I seek info about asexuality then it will be always posted by the queer types into non-binarism, transgenderism without dysphoria and more. Any other accounts which are anti-queer but pro-LGB usually reject asexuality as orientation and consider it a mental disorder or a physical issue.

That sounds really frustrating, I hear you. I found it difficult enough to make my way to this online community of L/G/B people, we're harder to find after being kicked off reddit; I'd imagine it's even more difficult to find a group of actual asexuals! Have you been able to find any such forum or group?

If I was non-ace I'd probably agree with sentiments it's a mental disorder or something... thanks to queer Tumblr girls going by they/them pronouns, who think you don't need dysphoria to be trans and being gay is transphobic...

Yeah I mean I understand why people come to this conclusion, just like I understand why some people might judge lesbians based off of the autogynephilic men on the "actuallesbians" subreddit; it's disheartening but understandable. But that doesn't mean asexuality isn't real. And evolutionarily speaking, it makes a lot of sense as a variation that might arise in a population, just like same-sex attraction.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

ave you been able to find any such forum or group?

To be fair, no. All asexual groups are pro-TQ+. I guess it shouldn't be surprising since they were probably first recognized by these blue-haired queer they/them girls? That's indeed frustrating...

[–]HelloMomo 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I thought I was 100% asexual for a decade. During that time, one of my friends (who knew!) asked me out. I asked him, "What do you think asking out your asexual friend is going to yield?" and he said something along the lines of, "I dunno, I'm ace-spec too, and I thought maybe..." So yeah. I feel where you're coming from.

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm personally open to turn out not to be asexual later in life though it's still strange to never have crushes nor find anyone sexually attractive even in my 20s. Like, what causes it (I take no meds) if... let's say... I turn out "normal" in my 30s or 40s? I've read that non-straight people realize their sexuality later in life but I think they know they have certain feelings since the beginning but they'll suppress them cuz society tells them they are wrong and it will take some time for them to accept these feelings and realize they're gay or bi. I never had any "weird" feelings to same sex nor opposite sex really. I only become aware that people are even think what's their orientation once I saw a trend of teens putting in their bios they are bi or gay (way before the trans craziness). I think this is when I started to think deeper that actually being indifferent to same sex isn't what heterosexuality is, lol. I understood heterosexuality as negation of homosexuality so I didn't even feel too worried.

[–]HelloMomo 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I really wasn't suppressing my same sex attraction. Just given the way close female friendships are framed by society—especially when you're young—I thought it was within the realm of normal friendship feelings. I was a lonely kid for most of my childhood, so if I was a bit obsessive about some of my friends, I thought it was just because I'd been lonely for so long before, and now here someone was to end that. And that women are ridiculously beautiful was just objectively true, not my option or anything... right? And sure, they cause aching longing in my chest sometimes, but all beautiful things do that, like Italian villas and gypsy vanner horses and the starry night sky. And I probably actually am less sexual than some people, so that helped. And whenever I thought I might be lesbian, I told myself, "No, you're just talking yourself into it because you want to be a lesbian. You have to be born lucky to be a lesbian, and you are not lucky."

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Personally I wonder if sexual attraction is like asexuals try to frame it... like wanting to get physical? There was maybe only one person in my life I wanted to just know but in my head I never thought of anything unusual - I desired to be friends with that person of the same sex. But the idea of anything physical was really repulsive and seen as ruining what I wanted. The only time I ever felt "attracted" but it wasn't even physical nor I'd say very intense as people frame crushes to be very intense and obsessive. I was only like: "Wow this person is so cool and shares the same niche interests as me".

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Sarcasm: You value precision in language too much. You should stop that.

I'm aware of the huge diversity in human sexuality. There's a problem fitting all that into the gay/straight/bi/ace boxes, or, the other way around, diverse people trying to fit themselves into the few options they have. The gay/straight/bi model works pretty good for the majority, but it's not perfect. It's certainly getting tainted, and it's showing its age for it--this is your point.

If a guy tells me he's bisexual, it's like... okay, now exactly what does that mean? Interested in sex with phenotypically normal partners of both sexes? (The thing that actually constitutes bisexuality.) Or? (Beating the dead horse here, sorry!) Gyneandromorphophilia, "chasing." Masochism, e.g. "forced bi?" AGP and they're not out as trans? Like, which one is it? Paraphilia NOS?

Someone tells me they are ace? It's like... okay, now exactly what does that mean? Lesbian but does not yet know it? Teenager on Reddit that is frustrated with hook-up culture but in a few months is going to get the spark and labeled themselves too quickly? Maybe it's a person who's actually only interested in literally 50ft tall women and because no literally 50ft tall women exist they're confused and conflicted as to why they're not sexually attracted to normal-height women IRL and want to try and solve that self-esteem issue with an asexual identity? (Macrophilia, real example from Reddit. That's not asexuality, by the way. That's Paraphilia, Not Otherwise Specified / SM.)

Presented with all these real issues I've run into, and maybe I'm just socializing with and analyzing weird crowds, well, that much is true... what's the utility of a sexual orientation identity label any more?

You can certainly accuse me of going through an identity fetishism phase. Been there, done that. It sucks. Take my advice and avoid it. With that analytical mind of yours, you'll never find the right word. There's always going to be some interlocutor that shares your identity label that you want to get the hell away from.

Jan Clausen writes: I do not want to become an identity junkie, hooked on the rush that comes with pinning down the essential characteristic that, for the moment, seems to offer the ultimate definition of the self, the quintessence of oppression, the locus of personal value--only to be superseded by the next revelation. 'My Interesting Condition', Out/Look: National Lesbian and Gay Quarterly 7, pp. 11-21. 1990. She's writing about reconciling her lesbian identity with falling passionately in love with a man.

Identity junkie bad. Look at Reddit. Miserable lot.

Making more labels probably won't help. Probably the most modern model is Sari van Anders' Sexual Configurations Theory. It's good and interesting, but entirely noncommunicable for general use. Highly recommend reading it though. PDF online.

A short, canned answer is how I'm representing myself these days. Just a few sentences to cover the majority of my ground when I actually want to say something meaningful to a receptive audience. Who I want and how I want them. No labels. They have their use for (meaningful) identity politics, but beyond that, they suck, IMHO.

Just my two cents. Concrete labels seem to work really well for some people, but mind the interlocutors wrecking your party.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think you might have misunderstood my post a little bit. I am not looking for a new label because I am dissatisfied with current ones; I am expressing frustration over the fact that a word that describes me (lesbian) is 1. being twisted to mean something it does not (e.g. men using it), and 2. has a gross objectification connotation because of how some people fetishize same-sex relationships.

Sarcasm: You value precision in language too much. You should stop that.

I'm going to assume you're joking, haha. But anyway, I do not mean to be overly precise on this post, again, this was more of a vent / "DAE?" I don't even use the word lesbian IRL; on the rare occasion it's relevant, I just say I only really like women and I'm not into men.

Take my advice and avoid it. With that analytical mind of yours, you'll never find the right word.

I am VERY lucky to have avoided that particular rabbit hole, you are right, and thanks. I think it must be partly because I never got into tumblr.

A short, canned answer is how I'm representing myself these days.

Sounds like we have a pretty similar approach.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think you might have misunderstood my post a little bit. I am not looking for a new label because I am dissatisfied with current ones

I may have gotten a bit off-topic, but I wasn't trying to offer you a new one, just my thoughts on communication and the difficulty therein with regards to this particular topic, as a whole. My own little rant.

Sarcasm: You value precision in language too much. You should stop that.

I'm going to assume you're joking.

Yeah, that was sarcasm. My point is, people are using words in all sorts of wild ways so that they're becoming meaningless. This frustrates me. I often find myself having to establish lengthy preambles for any conversation just so that everyone is on the same page before proceeding. Sometimes the preamble is the conversation, because words, definitions in and of themselves have meaning, or, at least they should. Semantic arguments for days.

DAE? Yeah, me!

I am VERY lucky to have avoided that particular rabbit hole, you are right, and thanks. I think it must be partly because I never got into tumblr.

You're lucky, it, in general, is a compelling rabbit hole, and there is another end to it, if one can eventually reach it. Lots of people go in and they don't come back out.

I don't even use the word lesbian IRL; on the rare occasion it's relevant, I just say I only really like women and I'm not into men.

Sounds like we have a pretty similar approach.

I wonder if anyone else here does the same thing. I don't like being ambiguous. My orientation is a personal, nuanced thing to me, and if I'm going to share it, I want the other person to really get what I'm saying and simultaneously not get a misconception because the way that other boneheads are using words.

Parting thought. There's a difference between an orientation, what one actually is; and an identity, how one conceives of themselves (rightly or wrongly,) and how they represent themselves to others. Two different beasts, often conflated.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I may have gotten a bit off-topic, but I wasn't trying to offer you a new one, just my thoughts on communication and the difficulty therein with regards to this particular topic, as a whole. My own little rant.

Whoops, my bad! Not that I would ever go off on a rant, hahaha...

Sometimes the preamble is the conversation, because words, definitions in and of themselves have meaning, or, at least they should. Semantic arguments for days.

Agreed. (I often have this problem at work, as well.) I think this can be constructive and interesting when everyone in the convo is approaching it in good faith. Individuals higher in narcissistic traits use this type of "preamble" conversation to question one's sense of reality, however. But my BS meter has gotten a lot better over the years at figuring out when someone is more in that particular camp.

I wonder if anyone else here does the same thing. I don't like being ambiguous.

I have heard several other people in this community express something similar. To be honest, I would be happy to just say "lesbian" if it didn't have all the baggage attached and just MEANT, to most people, "I only like women (female humans) and I don't like men (male humans)". But I feel uneasy about using it and, in certain contexts, even afraid to use it. It is not that I care about the culture of being a lesbian-- it's that I'm against, on principle, being afraid to use the word or avoiding it out of shame/discomfort. The fact that that is the case, bothers me.

Parting thought. There's a difference between an orientation, what one actually is; and an identity, how one conceives of themselves (rightly or wrongly,) and how they represent themselves to others. Two different beasts, often conflated.

Completely agree.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thankfully no. But that's only because all of the woke bisexuals have started identifying as pansexual, or bisexual+ now. Most people see me refer to myself as regular ol' bi and they know their gender nonsense doesn't work on me.

[–]PeakingPeachEaterfemale♀ | detrans🦎 | eater of peaches 🍑 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not out about my sexuality. People assume I'm a "dyke"(yes, been asked that, instead of you know, saying "lesbian" or "gay" like normal people should) or my family views me as a "good ol' straight christian/catholic 'girl' thanks chronic baby-face, I am much older than I look... "---which I am not! I only conform around family/in-laws so I don't receive any imbecilic comments similar to what I've experienced in the past being called the t-word and f-word. One of my harebrained relatives that does not know me well thought I was MtF since he thought my mother only had SONS...I'm the ONLY daughter...Also, I'm a BIOLOGICAL woman so ouch. My "default" mode is GNC though without even trying...I don't even really "look" like a man. I've been told I look like akin to this actress whenever I put on makeup---also based on her high1cheekbones2, dimpled smile3, and headshape4...But I have bushier brows, darker/"browner" skin, and my nose is wider/longer lol. Not sure if the headshape/cheekbones paired with GNC styles/clothes makes people think I'm a "boy" or trans?? I also hardly wear makeup....

Anyways...

If it somehow comes into topic, I just say I like men and women and don't use a label really unless asked upfront. Only my potential love interests/partners were/are to know my sexuality. I do not care if anyone else does. Somehow, I'm a TQ+ magnet and they want to figure out my pronouns for being GNC(ex. trans or nonbinary). I just feel awkward in general talking about bisexuality, I usually meet TQ+ types or stereotypes outside in the real world...

Recently though, I did meet a gender critical gay guy in real life so I did not mind mentioning that I'm bi and shared just a tiny bit of my gender critical views so to not scare him off... He currently works at the TQ+ job that I just left. Kinda sucks that I met him later on though, but at least I got a new acquaintance/friend out of it!

[–]deftoneslettucetomcat 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I say I'm interested in both sexes to avoid the bigenderal 'sex is a spectrum' bullshit.

Since bisexuality manifests differently from person to person - preferring one over the other, only wanting to do one thing with women and another thing with men - it started off being pretty watered down already. I don't associate with men much, which lets me avoid the men who 'discovered' they were 'bisexual' after watching BDSM sissy porn or some shit, and I'm happy about that because I found they tend to be misogynistic (having sex for the sake of it, having sex with any hole). I don't talk to minors for casual conversation, so I'm mostly around bisexuals who aren't looking for attention and don't think it's a cool label.

I found that there are women at any age who will say they're bisexual but are obviously straight.

I am pissed that despite bisexuality literally being the most inclusive sexuality, TRAs and libfems managed to spin it so that it requires even more intersectionality.

I am in the UK btw. People here a bit more sane, queer isn't really a thing, but I see organisations pushing for it. It might be more of a thing in universities, but I wouldn't know that.