'Research shows many trans folks' sexual attractions change after transition' So were they lying to themselves or everyone else?

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[–]Constantine 34 insightful - 5 fun34 insightful - 4 fun35 insightful - 5 fun -  (10 children)

Well, we know that the medical interventions these people put themselves through do all kinds of damage to their bodies, hormones, and sex drives, so I find it at least possible that there's something wacky going on, such as a trans woman losing his sex drive and then saying he's "attracted" to men now to seem more socially acceptable for whatever reason, or something similar. Yet another reason we should not be allowing this kind of self-mutilation. What are the implications for LGB people if sexuality can just be changed, not to mention the deleterious effects on the individuals concerned?

However, the article's "expert's" opinion on the matter is nothing short of ridiculous:

“Imagine you’re in a female body and you identify on the masculine spectrum. You don’t want to be sexual with men, because those men would treat you as a female-bodied person, and that kind of sexual interaction is not of interest to you. So even if you did have attractions for men, you might not engage with men or even indulge in fantasies about men until you can be witnessed as and interacted with in your affirmed gender.”

Please. I don't even know how to respond to something this nonsensical. So basically, this supposed scientist's answer is, "I didn't let myself be attracted to men because I understand that men hurt women, so I have to be a man in order to safely be attracted to men." These poor young women. Instead of teaching young men to treat them right, we're teaching the women and girls that they can just become men and not have to deal with misogyny anymore. Because not wanting to be treated like a sex object means they're actually men.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 29 insightful - 5 fun29 insightful - 4 fun30 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

Article is very homophobic. And they are quoting only research about MtF transgenders, but interviewing FtM instead. Research had 232 MtF transgenders, all from one same surgeon, one same city and group. And research is from 2005 year, about 1990-2005 years, so before all this transgender boom, when most transitioners were homosexual men. There few studies, but only one of them is actual research (from 2005 year), other ones seems to be political statements without much evidence or research done.

And study is weird, because "85% of participants experienced orgasm at least occasionally after SRS and 55% ejaculated with orgasm."

How they can ejaculate, if they had SRS? Study also said that many became asexual, so your idea about "social acceptable" seems to be true as well.

More frequent autogynephilic arousal after SRS was correlated with more frequent masturbation, a larger number of sexual partners, and more frequent partnered sexual activity

Plus study is mostly taking to account AGP transwomen, so nothing weird in them "changing" sexuality. Some of them seems were "virgins" before, so only after transition started dating and having sex - so most likely they were gay or bisexual men with internalized homophobia. I know at least one such gay man, who was saying they love women, but never dating one or liking any stars, they only liked male stars "for their actor talent", but after transition they "started dating men, they were straight before and they are straight now again".

Quoting the article (not study):

In tested transwomen [...] where 43% reported significant shifts in their sexual orientation (of 2+ points along the 7-point Kinsey scale).

+2 points on Kinsey scale is not significant, and it means that they were bisexual to begin with. So going from "Liking women a lot and liking men a bit" to "Liking women normally, and liking men a bit more" is not changing their sexuality at all.

it is undoubtedly fluid to some extent, so shifts in attraction could be no different from those that happen to many cisgender folks as well. Research with cisgender populations finds that almost 20% of young adult women and 5% of men report changes in their attractions over a 5-year period.

So "cis" gays and lesbians, or "cis" straight - 20% of them are becoming bisexual, and every 5 years their sexuality shifts a bit! Why no one is noticing it, then?

Imagine you’re in a female body and you identify on the masculine spectrum. You don’t want to be sexual with men, because those men would treat you as a female-bodied person, and that kind of sexual interaction is not of interest to you. So even if you did have attractions for men, you might not engage with men or even indulge in fantasies about men until you can be witnessed as and interacted with in your affirmed gender.

I have no words here.

Please. I don't even know how to respond to something this nonsensical. So basically, this supposed scientist's answer is, "I didn't let myself be attracted to men because I understand that men hurt women, so I have to be a man in order to safely be attracted to men." These poor young women. Instead of teaching young men to treat them right, we're teaching the women and girls that they can just become men and not have to deal with misogyny anymore. Because not wanting to be treated like a sex object means they're actually men.

I've noticed it is a lot with young lesbians, most of them seems to be non-binary or transmen. In videos someone posted here, from young detransitioners - all of them were lesbian tomboy girls, who were bullied for not looking feminine enough or for liking boys, but after transition they were praised and not bullied anymore. Tavistock own data from Keira Bell case showed that 2/3 of transmen (women) transitioned with reasoning of being tomboys or liking girls, I believe 1/3 were lesbians there. This trans movement is very toxic towards young GNC kids and towards LGB youth.

[–][deleted] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

How they can ejaculate, if they had SRS?

MtF SRS does not remove prostate or seminal vesicles (attached to prostate) which account for 95% of ejaculate volume. Surgery on the prostate can result in urinary incontinence, which is why they stay away from it.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 24 insightful - 5 fun24 insightful - 4 fun25 insightful - 5 fun -  (5 children)

So they can ejaculate with their "neo-vaginas"? The more I am learning about this, the more insane it looking.

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

God, that's disgusting.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Right? I love when my husband ejaculates, but the idea of a "woman" ejaculating sperm is 🤢🤮

[–]Elvira95Viva la figa 12 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 3 fun13 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Well, that's not a woman....

[–]INeedSomeTimeAsexual Ally 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

So that's how they can be wet? XD

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All the plumbing required to ejaculate is there. This is not much different than a guy who's had a vasectomy as a contraceptive measure. Of course, the hormones change things and there can be issues with getting enough stimulation to orgasm, but yeah, you can get ejaculate. It depends on the person.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 9 insightful - 7 fun9 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

?????

Are you for real?!

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Hey now, what's wrong with a guy wanting to be treated as a sex object? ;)

[–]julesburm1891 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You have to love the implication that of trans peoples’ sexuality “changes” then LGB people’s could be changed.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 21 insightful - 5 fun21 insightful - 4 fun22 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

You mean when - transmen were lesbian women and became "straight men", or transwomen were straight men and became "lesbian women"?

Jokes aside, I know many bisexual or homosexual men, who transitioned and made surgeries, so they can stay with men. They were denying being homosexual and trying to date women before transition, and with full transition, they "finally feel free" to express their feelings. However, it only applies to transsexuals, who are HSTS. Most transwomen are not like that.

Second group of transgender people with this, are men with paraphilias like AGP. Paraphilias are creating false images in brain, and person with paraphilia can get aroused or orgasm from anything or anyone, regardless of their sexuality (like paedo often liking both boys and girls regardless of paedo's sexuality - and no, I am not saying that people with paraphilias are paedos), so "loving men" is part of their AGP fantasy of being woman. It is pretty old way for them, nowadays majority found "work around" of this situation, and are calling themselves "trans lesbians". However there are still a lot of them with "rape fetish" and "pregnancy fetish", who are getting aroused from imagining themselves as women who being raped, such AGP will start "liking" men to fuel their paraphilia. Those are minorities of them, thought.

Sex workers, porn actors/actresses and some victims of prolonged sexual abuse - can have similar sexuality deformation, when they are not attracted or aroused to opposite or same sex, but can stimulate themselves beforehand to get aroused and then have sex and orgasm with anyone. It is not affecting transgender situation, just adding as one of examples how sexuality can be "changed".

And lets not forget about "political lesbians", who were mostly straight women, but were forcing themselves to live with women, and sometimes even have sex with women. Their sexuality was still straight, but for ideological reasons they were saying otherwise. Similar can be with transgenders claiming that they are now "real women, so like every real woman they are liking men" (I've heard this homophobic phrase from one bisexual man, who was afraid of his own attraction to men before transition).

Seems this all affects only small fraction of men who transitioned (transwomen), and seems this almost not affecting women (transmen), - majority seems to be staying with sexuality they were before. If it was something to do with hormones in adulthood - majority of trans would be changing sexuality, and gay conversion therapy through cross sex hormones would work as well, but it is not what we are observing.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This is a super helpful summary, thank you. Sometimes I get confused with all the different pathways of mental gymnastics people take...

[–][deleted] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Aren't a lot of trans people cluster bs? And don't cluster bs also flit from one identity to another?

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Personality disorders and autism seem to be comorbid with ROGD. Likely a causative agent with regards to grooming. These kids that don't fit in get told by the internet the reason why that's so is because they're trans, and transitioning will fix everything. Trans is celebrated, their social status is elevated, and there you go.

Many AGP individuals exhibit clinical levels of narcissism--yes, this is cluster B. My guess is that AGP causes this, not that there's an underlying reason for both.

Very little work has been done on personality disorders and how they relate to trans.

[–]Seahorse 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which is weird because some 50% of the trans community has some sort of personality disorder according to studies.

Its huge.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Read that as "cluster BS" at first and was so confused. Lol.

Yes, "cluster B" personality disorders are overrepresented among transgender populations (although the specific % depends on the type of sample).

And don't cluster bs also flit from one identity to another?

That is characteristic of BPD, yes, from what I understand-- there is a lack of sense of self/identity, so they try different things to see if they fit. Not necessarily with the others.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

'Cluster BS' may work even better.

Ah, I thought they were all prone to shifting identities and stunts, borderline due to unstable sense of self and the other two for attention purposes. Ty for the info.

[–][deleted] 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The first cited study, Auer et al., is... topically all over the place. They cite Foucalt, Volume 1, who's foundational to Queer Theory, but they really do seem to be interested in the science... however they use an imprecise definition of sexual orientation--the APA's-- and they don't provide the self-report instrument used to assess it. So after a brevity of aborted philosophizing about what sexual orientation is, they don't provide their definition and they just get on with it. It's probably operationalized by the notions of the study subjects. Which, considering the relative homogeneity of the group, isn't that bad... but I wouldn't exactly rely on a trans cohort to provide a coherent answer. Examine your genital preferences and all that.

Just strikes me as sloppy. I don't think... I'm fairly certain the way that a trans person approaches "sexual orientation" is different than the layperson. The authors probably have a different conception, too.

I suspect nobody is actually talking about the same thing.

"We could not demonstrate a particular variable concerning transition process which would predict change in sexual orientation."

Uh. I think the variable of "trans" seems to have a large effect there, kiddos. Get outside your box. Also, ask yourself, why is there so much damn erotic variation versus a cis population?

They think they're capturing the erotic phenomena by asking the cohort who they want to (presumably) fuck. But what if the erotic phenomena in this medicalized cohort is primarily or exclusively trans in-and-of-itself? This goes back to my earlier point of how they're conceptualizing sexual orientation.

Also. People lie about this stuff all the time. Self-deception included. Self-report. Stab me. Blanchard cracked the nut because he used phallometry. Erect penises don't lie.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 11 insightful - 7 fun11 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

One of studies quoted there had research based on who people started dating (or reported they are dating), instead of taking their words. However, that study covers only MtF transgenders, is based in 1990-2000s, and mostly talking about AGP transgenders (half of group) and HSTS with internalized homophobia, there only 6% changed their sexuality completely, and around 30% became "more bisexual". It also not speaking about sexuality, like other researches there, because other researches there speaking about "straight, homosexual, bisexual", which can mean anything to them, this study directly stating "started dating men, but were dating women before", without implification is it homosexuality or heterosexuality. However, by doing that - that study implies that transwoman who is dating man is in homosexual relationship (which is funny, and will be seen as transphobic nowadays). That study have a lot of problems too, like all researched transgenders are MtF from same place, same doctor, from same group, with similar reasons of transition.

[–]reluctant_commenter 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's probably operationalized by the notions of the study subjects. Which, considering the relative homogeneity of the group, isn't that bad... but I wouldn't exactly rely on a trans cohort to provide a coherent answer. Examine your genital preferences and all that.

Just strikes me as sloppy. I don't think... I'm fairly certain the way that a trans person approaches "sexual orientation" is different than the layperson. The authors probably have a different conception, too.

If that is what happened then, as you pointed out yourself, it would be a major problem. It's so ridiculous... one of the key principles of science is clarifying the definition and employing it in a consistent way so that we can be sure that the construct-- the thing we want to measure (sexual orientation)-- IS actually being measured by our operationalization (the way researchers ask people about their sexual orientation, for example). But of course, TRAs have sought to completely redefine what sexual orientation is anyway...

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's endemic. Randal Sell pointed this out in '97.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023%2FA%3A1024528427013

"At present it is clear that researchers are confused as to what they are studying when they assess sexual orientation in their research. Several literature reviews have found that researchers' conceptual definitions of these populations are rarely included in reports of their research and, when they are included, they often differ theoretically. Further, the operational methods used to measure sexual orientation in these studies do not always correspond with the most common conceptualizations of sexual orientation (Shively, 1984; Sell and Petrulio, 1995)"

TRAs have sought to completely redefine what sexual orientation is anyway...

When I'm practicing science, that's just fine. A good model will try to capture the entire phenomena in question. Trans (AGP/AAP, HSTS, AHE) has something to do with human sexuality.

That's why physicists are trying to do their Grand Unified Theory of everything, for example. It's not good enough to have the special relativity stuff over here, that describes these phenomena, and then the quantum stuff over here that only covers different sort of things.

Any proper model of sexual orientation has to capture trans, IMHO. If it's got anything to do with eroticism or sexuality, it must be considered. Trans has actually been a wonderful tool for me to elucidate other non trans phenomena of sexuality. It's a great standpoint to think from; it generates research at the very least.

People are just working from their own viewpoints, their little slice of the pie, and trying to universalize it. Ugh.

[–]EzukiRaen 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That article was hard to read and it made me feel so uncomfortable. It's basically saying that conversion therapy works without saying "conversion therapy".

[–]GConly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Women show differences in how attracted they are to masculine and feminine faces depending on how much estrogen they have in their body.

This might be a reaction to hormones and people who were already not 100% one way or the other.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I wonder how many of these are just reverse engineering fake bisexuality to validate some gender based attraction but their sexuality was actually unchanged. Ie... Lesbian becomes FtM and is now exposed to other FtMs and claim that is a new sexuality but it's literally still just them being a lesbian with extra steps.