Why do we not hear as much pushback from gay, lesbian, and bisexual people against gender ideology?

submitted by yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" from self.LGBDropTheT

Why don't more lesbian, gay, and bisexual people realize the harms of gender ideology to public perception understanding, and discourse on same-sex attraction and rights? What is preventing them from making those realizations? I don't believe it's that we are all being silenced, though many of us are. A lot of LGB people cheer on gender ideology and partake in it themselves. So many lesbians are now proud to announce that they're not women while championing women's rights. It doesn't make any sense and it's just adopting the idea that lesbians aren't really women and gay men aren't really men.

What are the obstacles to lesbian, gay, and bisexual people waking up en masse? Presumably they have to be seeing a lot of the stuff we are, but they're just not questioning it or they just try to ignore it? Surely, they must have noticed that spaces/groups that used to be for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people are now overrun by heterosexual people donning rainbow merch and hair colors?

I'm sure it's a complex web of issues including that the organizations that helped many of us get rights are championing this gender stuff and feeding these narratives about trans heterosexual people being responsible for our rights. But like don't they notice the abrupt change in leadership and messaging? Don't these lesbians notice all of the men in their dating apps? Aren't many of these gay, lesbian, and bisexual people hearing the arguments about strap-ons and penises being interchangeable, and if so, why is that not setting off alarm bells? Have you ever heard any lesbian, gay, or bisexual person use the phrase "genital preference" or comment on the phrase?

A "non-binary" extremely feminine lesbian I know (who still uses she/her pronouns) is all about "gender is a social construct that is separate from sex." So it seems like she hasn't gotten the memo on TQ trying to replace sex with "gender identity" under the law and in interpersonal social interactions. What is the best way to pass along that message?

ETA: I also note that lesbian YouTubers to varying degrees will occasionally say something like, "Sorry guys, of course some lesbians have penises." I've heard two say the word "TERF." And then there's also the not particularly masculine lesbian YouTuber who transitioned to become a trans man Youtuber Miles McKenna and you can see many of her pre-transition videos.

But none of the lesbian Youtubers that I know of have transbians in their social circle. Nor have any of them dated a trans MtF person. They also talk frequently about the realities of being lesbians, the kind of stuff that would get them banned for transphobia and "punching down" in r/AL or any other nominally "lesbian" space. None of this would be that surprising because they're, you know, actually gay, but I'm surprised that I don't see them getting called out for it more seriously. Other than I imagine it would be bad really bad PR for the trans community to try to get Rose and Rosie, for example, cancelled. But I think it's somewhat telling that most lesbian Youtubers at best pay a little bit of lip service but otherwise aren't going full-blown TRA.

As another example, the "Dating Straight" podcast, which is hosted by a gay man and lesbian, never had a trans person on it until a few weeks ago when it featured Gia Gunn who was apparently the first trans person on RuPaul's Drag Race. Of course the title of the episode is "Transphobia in The Gay Community with Gia Gunn." I'm not particularly interested in watching/listening as a form of entertainment, but might watch later for purposes related to the discussion in this post, but it at least appears clear that this is an HSTS trans-identified male, so still not a transbian. And again this person is not part of their social circle. The only transbian I've ever seen appear on any lesbian Youtuber's channel is Melody Maia Money, who appeared on Arielle Scarcella's channel. And notably, this person was very quick to cancel Arielle recently as featured in this video.

So my point is that I think lesbian Youtube is both emblematic of the cognitive dissonance happening, but should I take it as a sign that they have some idea of what's going on but are trying to maintain their brand as many of us are?

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[–]bastetkat 40 insightful - 11 fun40 insightful - 10 fun41 insightful - 11 fun -  (5 children)

Have you ever seen the tweet where a man claims “I believe transwomen are women, except for dating purposes”? Most of them are like that. TRA in the streets, “TERF” in the sheets.

[–]pacmanla 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Honestly, I've seen more women on the "Transwomen are women" train. Men, particularly those who are heterosexual, know that claiming transwomen as "women" leads to eventually being intimate with them. That's not happening. Though, to be fair, you have some male celebrities such as Daniel Radcliffe, spouting the "Transwomen are women" nonsense, but I just chalk that up with him being in "Hollyweird" where that's expected. But, yes, as you stated people who spout that nonsense are not interested in sexual or romantic relationships with TRAs.

[–]LasagnaRossa 20 insightful - 4 fun20 insightful - 3 fun21 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

They always cop out with that stupid genital preference concept. No dude, you said trans women are women, you're straight, you must date them too.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Which is pretty much the least helpful attitude to our point. They’re contributing to the narrative that LGB people are bigoted in dating while trying to coddle TQ feelings and make them feel morally superior.

[–]insta 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Most people simply pay lip service to say things they view as politically trendy. When it comes down to it at the end of the day they drop their so-called positions and principles pretty quickly.

[–]julesburm1891 29 insightful - 1 fun29 insightful - 0 fun30 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Honestly, I think most people don’t think at all when they’re convinced they’re on the right side. For years the gay rights movement built up an us versus them narrative and waxed on about being on the right side of history. Now those same groups are pushing homophobic garbage that makes no sense. LGB folks buying into this are convinced they’re the good guys and that the evil TERFs are the bad guys. They aren’t thinking through anything critically because they have a sense of moral superiority. The fact that actually questioning gender dogma gets you exiled is probably also a factor in people wanting to be blissfully ignorant.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This sounds accurate. But unfortunately I think that also means the best strategy to raising awareness is going to vary by person based on whatever their biggest concerns and sensitivities are. Maybe the most universal concerns or most alarming would be the transing of gay kids + autogynephilia/cotton ceiling?

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Self righteousness is one hell of a drug

[–]Shadow_Lurker 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The mythology created around the Stonewall riots ended up making LGB people believe that they own their rights to the gender brigade, something which isn't true, as has been proved multiple times on this very sub.

TRAs still propagate such lies for two reason: it legitimizes transgenderism on one side and it minimises dissent from LGB people on another, because it paints any pushback from them as a "betrayal" to the people who "gave them rights". It's very insidious.

What are the obstacles to lesbian, gay, and bisexual people waking up en masse?

They are awake, in fact, some always were.

Let's just say that HSTS had already a very rocky relationship with gay men, something which has not changed in the last years. What did change was the recent push for the T and the colonization of gay spaces, which made some afraid to speak against them.

Surely, they must have noticed that spaces/groups that used to be for lesbian, gay, and bisexual people are not overrun by heterosexual people donning rainbow merch and hair colors?

Even regular 'woke' straight people have been predominant in LGB spaces for some time now. On principle I have no problem with that, but on practice this has lead to some akward scenarios, like for example, gay bashings happening inside gay bars and people taking such spaces as if they were zoos, which is very insulting to say the least.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The mythology created around the Stonewall riots ended up making LGB people believe that they own their rights to the gender brigade, something which isn't true, as has been proved multiple times on this very sub.

TRAs still propagate such lies for two reason: it legitimizes transgenderism on one side and it minimises dissent from LGB people on another, because it paints any pushback from them as a "betrayal" to the people who "gave them rights". It's very insidious.

I find this interesting because this narrative is so recent. And how did LGB people not notice that 5-10 years ago their were no trans heterosexuals in their LGBT spaces and groups and now they're basically the majority? And since the suicide myth is so prominent, how do none of these people realize that they can't think of a single human being who committed suicide because they were trans? And that the the LGBT orgs can't seem to come up with any such person to commemorate either? Or a single person who suffered violence for being trans? Until maybe recently with Eden the Doll. It just seems like everything is so out of nowhere any yet it seems perfectly timed with when gay marriage became legalized (at least in the United States).

Even regular 'woke' straight people have been predominant in LGB spaces for some time now. On principle I have no problem with that, but on practice this has lead to some akward scenarios, like for example, gay bashings happening inside gay bars and people taking such spaces as if they were zoos, which is very insulting to say the least.

Ugh yea the gay neighborhood in my area is just mostly straight people/queers at this point. One time my cousins invited me out to a gay bar to watch a drag show. They didn't know I was gay, but I remember thinking it felt invasive unless they were accompanying gay people. If you go into a gay bar or restaurant around here, you definitely can't assume the person you're talking to in there is same-sex attracted (unfortunately).

[–]Shadow_Lurker 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I find this interesting because this narrative is so recent. And how did LGB people not notice that 5-10 years ago their were no trans heterosexuals in their LGBT spaces and groups and now they're basically the majority?

Stonewall was a very exclusionary place, something that the usual suspects managed to whitewash over the years. The only people that could enter in there were those who had credentials with people already inside, which were mostly gay men and some butch lesbians. Hell, even drag queens had difficulties getting inside, imagine trans/genderspecials!

Ugh yea the gay neighborhood in my area is just mostly straight people/queers at this point.

By itself, this is not a problem. It signifies an integration of gay/lesbian people into society, which is very good!

The issues start to appear when some people are unable to respect the liturgies of gay/lesbian spaces. If a straight person goes to a gay bar, they must be aware that there's a chance that some same-sex flirting can happen and not flip their shit if it does.

[–]SkinnyVanilla 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

For me personally: TQ seems like a very obvious social fad/craze. Crazes happen; this one has people injecting themselves with cross sex hormones and surgically removing or altering healthy tissue, which is extreme, but body modifications and crazy dangerous shit have been part of social crazes for a long time. Victorians loved piercing their genitals and nips, and so did emo kids in 2003. The worried well of the early 20th century ate and bathed in radioactive materials.

There aren't suddenly huge swathes of the population who somehow aren't the sex that they are. This is an invented and new thing, even if there have always been a small number of people with some kind of sex dysphoria. I am avoiding getting actively involved online or irl, privately and conscientiously donating money to orgs working for LGB or women's interests, and waiting for it to fizzle out.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I believe it’s a craze too, but I’m mostly concerned to the changes to the law nd social and public policy. This is a craze that is infecting teachers and employers.

body modifications and crazy dangerous shit have been part of social crazes for a long time. Victorians loved piercing their genitals and nips, and so did emo kids in 2003.

Those wild Victorians. True story: I got my clitoral hood pierced in the 2000s. 😂 It’s still going strong. I knew I was going to be a professional though so I was always a fan of more hidden piercings rather than in your face front and center ones. I always meant to get my nipple pierced too but at this point, I’m glad I didn’t. I was never emo though, thank goodness! 😆

The worried well of the early 20th century ate and bathed in radioactive materials.

Go to Ukraine and you can still swim in radioactive water, but I’ll pass on this one. u/VioletRemi, have you ever been to the Radon Lake in Migiya?

[–]just_lesbian_things 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

But none of the lesbian Youtubers that I know of have transbians in their social circle. Nor have any of them dated a trans MtF person.

It's this.

First of all, female trans people don't harass gay men as much as male trans people harass lesbians.

Secondly, the gay male trans person is still mostly the face of the trans movement.

Most mainstream lesbian, the WeHo, London, glamourous upper crust types interact mainly with gay men. Even when it comes to male trans people, they interact with the gay male trans people. Creepy AGPs prey on people on the bottom, people like you and me. They harass older radfems and prey on internet teens. They're cowards. They talk about tRaNs WoMeN oF cOlOr dying but they'll never confront violent straight men who are the actual cause of it. Even when they harass lesbians, they're going to go for the unpopular, the vulnerable, the lonely, and the voiceless. They're trash through and through.

I reiterate my desire to see AOC, or any of these "celesbians" share a fucking changeroom with Jonathan Yaniv or Chris-chan. Fuck these fake libfems selling the rest of us out for power and money.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Add Emma Watson to the list. Has she used a public bathroom or changing room in her life?

And I’ve had the same thought process. That there’s a consciousness of wrongdoing that is revealed in how these TRAs treat celesbians. They know how to turn on and off their worst behavior, and channel who they direct it to. It’s very emblematic of narcissistic personality disorder.

[–]lulululululu 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Speaking as a lesbian who, age-wise, is right on the border between millennials and generation Z, there is SO much social pressure to be a TRA, it's scary. Just to give an example: my first year of college, at a women's college, I attended a meeting of one of the campus LGBT organizations, and I was shocked to realize I was LITERALLY the only person in the room who did not identify as transgender or non-binary. This group, and on-campus activists in general, spent so much time talking about how "cis women" were evil, transphobic, and literally murdering transgender people with their transphobia, that pretty much every single not-straight women I knew came out as non-binary or transgender over the course of their time at college. I think it's in part, because they don't want to be seen as the oppressor and identifying as non-binary or transgender means they would be the victims, and in part, because in many places this gender ideology nonsense has pretty much taken over the entire LGB scene so if you don't believe in it you are not welcome in LGB spaces and you will likely be stalked and doxxed. More than anything else, believing in gender ideology as a young LGB person is about fitting in in this extremely strange subculture. So even if you don't really believe in it, you set aside your reservations, and you either convince yourself that you really do believe in it, or that the latest trans woman activist that's trending on Twitter knows more about it than you so you should just shut up and listen. That was my experience, anyway.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A combination of ignorance for some LGB people and fear for most LGB people who realise what is going on.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

good answers in other comments, but i just have to add that the sjw phenomena is directing where the conversation is going. The queer theory stuff is being pushed in colleges and now in elementary school. Mermaids does this in the U.K. The are redefining all the terms, like bisexual, or gender attraction instead of sexual attraction, even blurring the lines between bi and homosexuality. I see it alot on reddit, heterosexuals talking about gender attraction, genital preference... because they think those are the right terms. That we've made new sociologial breakthroughs in terminology. They are winning that war... changing the very definition of our words. Lgb youth are in the middle of it, they only know this new language, and this narrative that their sexuality is all gender based so it will naturally include trans people. you see that in the gay subbreddits, "if he's cute of course i'll give vagina a try..."

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lgb youth are in the middle of it, they only know this new language, and this narrative that their sexuality is all gender based so it will naturally include trans people. you see that in the gay subbreddits, "if he's cute of course i'll give vagina a try..."

What do you make of this though? Are they just not really gay? Are they gay and sincere but in for a rude awakening? Are they gay and confused and in for a rude awakening? Are they gay and just paying lip service?

It makes me nervous because we all know that we didn’t choose to be gay and it’s something that we just already are and came to accept. Given a lot of our circumstances, if we could just will ourselves to be attracted to the opposite sex when we were younger, many of us would have. So what does what is happening mean for us now? It’s like every attempt to develop a gay conversation therapy program worldwide and throughout time has failed before now, so how does this have the appearance of being successful? And how much of it is pure AstroTurf, at least with respect to what we see online? I don’t have any examples of this attitude that I’ve seen IRL but I don’t have the best vantage point.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

idk what to make of it... under no circumstances do I want to see a vagina down there. I guess they think secondary sex characteristics is somehow close enough. They might think they are supposed to try but will find out they don't like it or will do it once and pretend like they will do it all the time. There have always been gay men married to a woman and then they come out as gay. I never understood that either. Maybe they are slightly bi? Bi is the spectrum, I guess you can be close to either side. They won't consider having sex with a trans man as conversion therapy as all that matters is gender. They would probably consider a gay guy having sex with a trans woman as conversion therapy lol. The whole goal is to deconstruct gender and sex and therefore sexuallity, so everyone becomes pan I guess.
when it happens online enough, it seeps into real life, and you get a generation who thinks their sexuakiy is a genital preference.

[–]Cuppatea 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Today there was an article in WaPo about the violence that gay and big people in Nigeria face. The writer used the word queer throughout the article. I’m seeing the word queer used as an umbrella term to describe all gay people lately. When did this become acceptable? Who decided this was what we wanted to be called? I’m old enough to still feel the pain of being called this when I was just a kid.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Who decided this was what we wanted to be called?

Idiot kids and bold faced homophobic liars

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I noticed a straight reporter do that also, use queer instead of lgbtq. The woke crowd has decided for us that this is all inclusive. They are deciding all the rules.`

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't know, but if I'm being honest I think most of them are cowards. TRAs target gays and bis b/c they know we're vulnerable, and then threaten ostracism, loss of community, and even physical violence. So many cowardly gays would rather side with them than lose their only semblance of community.

That, or they've never gotten to actually know a TRA like the people on this sub have. I completely lost respect for Ellen Page when she defended that fucking AGP weeb who harassed and closed Goldfinger (one of the only lesbian bars in Japan).

This is a less extreme example, but I also lost respect for Jessica Kellgren-Fozard (one of my favorite youtubers) b/c of her recent pandering to TRAs. Either she's had her head in the fucking sand, or has chosen to prioritize trans fad politics over lesbians.

[–]diapason 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is a less extreme example, but I also lost respect for Jessica Kellgren-Fozard (one of my favorite youtubers) b/c of her recent pandering to TRAs. Either she's had her head in the fucking sand, or has chosen to prioritize trans fad politics over lesbians.

Yeah that one made me sad too. I hope it's just that she doesn't know

[–][deleted]  (2 children)

[removed]

    [–]pacmanla 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Well said

    [–]Movellon[M] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    This has been removed because it breaches our rules around disallowed language, we will re-approve it once it is edited. Please contact us via modmail for more information.

    [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

    Thanks so much for posting this, OP. I'm constantly asking myself the same question (in tones ranging from incredulous to apoplectic to despondent.. often all at once). Why are the LGB masses such willing dupes for "genderism"? They're by no means always hostage-video-y enough about it for fear to be the sole explanation.

    The following seem like at least partial answers:

    • MISUNDERSTANDING GENDER: 1.] Assuming that genderism is different from (and superior to: no longer cruel stereotypes) traditional gender roles, because it's based on "feelings" instead of sex. 2.] Assuming that genderism = GNC, something that LGB people often are (since a key component of both gender-roles is being heterosexual). 3.] Some (mis)perception that gender-roles are modern/freeing, because only recently have LGB people been "normalized" enough to be seen as gender-conforming (i.e., "masculine" gay men/"feminine" lesbians). 4.] Influence of Queer Theory (which champions "gender") due to so many of its best-known proponents being LG.
    • MISUNDERSTANDING BIOLOGICAL SEX: 1.] LG people (and liberals generally) being disconnected from/disapproving of the basis for bio-sex, i.e., reproduction. 2.] Distaste for it based on bio-sex's association with both homophobia and misogyny (same-sex sexuality is "wrong" because it's non-reproductive; women are "inferior" due to the femaleness of their bodies {capacity for pregnancy; menstruation; being smaller/less strong than men}), which make it-- and acknowledging it-- "bad". 3.] Confused with, and seen as inferior to, gender, since the latter is "chosen" and therefore (supposedly) "modern"/"enlightened". The prevalence of "choosy-choice" liberalism probably contributes to this.
    • IDENTITY POLITICS: Given the importance of LGB identity (often not easily accepted by either society or oneself), same-sex-attracted people are susceptible to knee-jerk support for anything declared as an identity.
    • SUSCEPTIBILITY TO "COMING-OUT" NARRATIVE: The whole "discovering my true self" depiction of trans-ness can't help but strike a chord for many LGB people, leading them to assume that genderspecials are essentially "family" (spoiler: they're not).
    • EVO-PSYCH: Prevalence of so-called "Evolutionary Psychology" giving people the notion that gender-roles are biologically-based, thus as concrete a fact as sex, natural and beneficial; we should therefore embrace and adapt to them.
    • UNUSED TO STRAIGHT APPROPRIATION: Since LGB people are so accustomed to thinking that the best we can hope for from heterosexuals is tolerance, their appropriation of us/our culture may go unrecognized, or even be seen as flattering ("wow, the In-Crowd who wouldn't ever let me sit at their table before actually LIKE me now!!!"). LGB as not merely unstigmatized but downright desirable is such a new thing that it catches many off-guard.
    • DISCOMFORT WITH MAINSTREAM: Being mainstream doesn't suit all LGB people; some want to stay countercultural/"edgy", especially activists who cut their teeth on the likes of Queer Nation or ACT UP (and don't realize why those methods are no longer called for). Now that merely being same-sex-attracted has lost all its shock value, they're looking for something that hasn't. The "genderist" cause, with its bizarre in-your-face-ism and never-ending drama, fits the bill nicely.
    • "PHOBIA"-PHOBIA: Conflating so-called "transphobia" (not reacting to "gender" as though it were biological sex) with homophobia, about which LGB people are understandably very sensitive. They then feel like bigots, and appease their "victims" out of guilt.

    So that's (some of) how I think we got here. As for what we do about it, well, this being TL;DR as hell already, I'll just ask: if my observations here seem sound, are there any strategies that they suggest to you?

    [–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

    Just wanted to say that I'm appreciating the quality of the responses in here and yours especially. I think you distilled out some new issues and explanations I hadn't thought of and also took ones I was generally aware of and acutely broken down the reasons and underlying thinking. On the subject of being unused to straight appropriation, I think this is interesting because so many gay people are still dealing with homophobia in different aspects of our lives and so "straight appropriation" happening simultaneously may seem absurd to many.

    I've also been thinking about how LGB activism has been inherently international because we're such a minority that we go beyond country lines, but that seems to have stopped to a certain extent, at least with respect to same-sex rights. Our local and national former same-sex rights orgs have totally abandoned LGB people in non-Western countries. We are disconnected from what LGB people abroad are experiencing and why. I think this is purposeful. Because it's trying to disconnect LGB people from our sense of homophobia. Make all of us think maybe we are privileged after all. Instead LGB people are being driven to direct all of our energy and attention inward. Think about our own identities, our gender, and why we are so bigoted with our genital preferences. Keep ourselves open-minded to being attracted to the opposite sex for those of us who are homosexual. There's a video I'll post soon that had me thinking about that where I was caught off guard by an obvious gay man explaining why he prefers to call himself "queer" not gay. He seemed utterly disconnected to any actual struggle that he or others have with their non-heterosexual sexual orientation.

    I'm working on a strategy for responding to all of the above, but it's not going to be one size fits all. I do think it starts with engaging the people we know and asking questions to figure out which of these issues is most at play for them and whether they've noticed any red flags that they're ignoring. A temperature check basically. I think if we come at individuals with too much at once, they will shut down. It's about leading the horse to water and planting the seeds for them to come to the right conclusions on their own at the right moment and for the reasons that resonate the most with them.

    [–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Thanks so much! Same here, really-- I'm generally impressed by the high quality of this sub's content, with you being among the usernames that I particularly look forward to seeing. Thoughtful and measured without being wishy-washy! A golden mean that is NOT easy to find (either in posts/comments... or oneself). And (related) really welcome to have a lawyer's perspective on all these issues, as well.

    Your observations about how LGB activism has largely turned inward-- not only away from the non-Western world, but away from anything outside ourselves, on an individual and even physical level-- is so important. I myself have become acutely aware of this, due in no small part to Oppressed Reptilian/"Salty" (a non-Westerner with deep Western acculturation) and his critical eye.

    What's happening to us SSA people troubles me so much. Perhaps because it all hits very close to home for me. Both in the sense that we now seem to be cultivating-- even promulgating!-- actual NEUROSIS (obsession with our feelings/bodies), and moreover doing so at the cost of any attention to people who really need our support. Notably LGBs outside the Western world; especially vulnerable ones here at home (the poor, those with mental illness, minors abused/disowned due to SSA; etc.); and... bisexuals.

    That last one is particularly significant to me, of course. But not just cuz I'm biased! Even now, we bi people are still largely invisible to everyone (often including ourselves), and, even when we ARE seen, almost always unrecognized. Due to being viewed as anything and everything except what we actually are: a sexual orientation. I've only just realized within the last few months that this is what biphobia, regardless of form, invariably comes down to.

    So what's the relevance? Well, there's cause for concern about how bi people are doing (not well, apparently-- recent studies seem to have found high poverty rates and poor mental/physical health, compared with those of all other sexual orientations). Plus, it's worth noting that-- from what I can tell-- almost as soon as bi had begun to emerge as an identity (circa 1990s), "trans" came on the scene and we disappeared again. Which makes me feel like this whole genderist takeover hijacked our movement before it even had a chance... and that this has cost us dearly.

    Please keep me posted on your strategy as it develops, and let me know if there's anything that I can do to help :)

    [–]NonimeTired of Explaining Reality to Fuckwits (TERF) 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    I feel this way about women in general. So many are completely unaware of how the ability to refer to ourselves as women and females is being taken away. The language referring to us is becoming more and more dehumanized. Any time I see a woman promoting this shit, all I can think of is wow, handmaiden, stripping away your own rights and the rights of women.

    [–]Kai_Decadence 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Honestly I feel it's because so many are too afraid to be vocal and honest about it. I think deep down a lot of Gays and Lesbians don't believe in Transgender ideology and are tired of the sexual attraction policing these trans-identified men and women cram down our throats but they're too afraid to get dog-piled on. But honestly someone has to stand up to the madness and I'm so grateful for the gays and lesbians who do though I mostly see Lesbians doing most of it and for good reason since it's their spaces being corrupted by these creepy straight fetish men. But I feel like there needs to be more of us gay men to stand up with our lesbian sisters and help push back against trans madness and that's why I've become very vocal about my lack of belief in transgender ideology. And as a feminine gay man who is also non-confomring, I think I can help fill in the gap when it comes to criticizing the HSTS branch of the Trans cult because I notice that Radfems and GC women can only go so far when tackling the trans ideology as they mostly have it right against the AGP types. But they then tend to run into a bit of a roadblock with HSTS because many people use HSTS trans-identified men to say that transgender ideology is a valid and real thing since HSTS (gay men) don't harass women, at least not the way that AGPs do and that is where I think someone like me could come in and help out.