Women's IssuesBi woman posts on r/bisexual calling out that the "Lesbian Master Doc" seems to be brainwashing bisexual women into believing they're lesbians. Post gets deleted.

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[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 39 insightful - 1 fun39 insightful - 0 fun40 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

In case anyone cannot see what she wrote:

I've read this and it seems to try and push women to end relationships with men. I'm a bi woman. I can see it for what it is. I have experience with both sexes, too.

Note that the poster accusing her of lying about being a bisexual woman (u/ Tamsin10 ) is a horrible, fake lesbian TRA moderator of r/latebloomerlesbians and r/femmelesbians.

For background, this is the "Am I Lesbian" Master Doc and yes it is brainwashing bisexual women into believing they're lesbian and straight women into believing they're lesbians or bisexual. I've written a lot about this topic including here where I talk about the connection between the Master Doc and gender ideology. This line of thinking, which has detached lesbianism from the female body and instead markets lesbianism as a cool lifestyle is a major reason why the lesbian and bisexual subreddits are such hellholes. Because not only are there men LARPing as lesbi women on there, but there are straight women LARPing as lesbi women, and also bisexual women convinced they are lesbian because of this brainwashing. They are the ones constantly talking up dick and saying you can like dick and be a lesbian.

This should be a major topic of discussion for bisexual women because the effect is not just dilution and erasure of lesbians, but dilution and erasure of bisexuality on both ends. You have straight women now calling themselves bisexual and bisexual women being preyed on and told they're actually lesbians. I would love to hear more about the perspective of bisexual women reading the Master Doc, and whether you are seeing any of the effects of this.

[–]just_lesbian_things 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

For background, this is the "Am I Lesbian" Master Doc and yes it is brainwashing bisexual women into believing they're lesbian and straight women into believing they're lesbians or bisexual

I skimmed that doc and I think it is bullshit too, but if you are getting "brainwashed" by a mess of a word document cobbled together by some hack on the internet, I daresay you have some serious personal problems you need to address. (General you, not you you).

I'm sorry but this is so stupid. Who the fuck are these people? Are they flat-earthers and anti-vaxxers too? Do they also give money to televangelists and Nigerian princes? How do they function in real life?

At least all of my aforementioned examples are perpetuated by people who are scumbag profiteers. I think the writer for this was probably another moron, but it's not written for nefarious purposes, so it's not even like these people are being victimized. I have absolutely no sympathy for people who get ""brainwashed"" by a badly written word document on some obscure corner of the internet. People need to get a grip or get off the internet if they cannot conduct themselves in a responsible manner.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I don't have the details, but I heard that the author made the initial list for personal use and it was repurposed by one or more "political lesbians" for mass use. I think what you fail to recognize is the worst damage isn't necessarily to the people who get "brainwashed" but to bisexual and lesbian communities that have to deal with their memberships being affected by this including that there are now a massive amount of bihet women speaking on behalf of lesbians and bisexual women to the detriment of actual lesbian and bisexual women.

And so is it stupid, yes, but it doesn't make the threat not serious. Look at the result of the TQ brainwashing on LGBTQ group membership and how many actual lesbians have been convinced that they're not really women, for example. And the overall dilution of same-sex attracted people in our own spaces. These groups predominantly serve the interests of straight people now.

[–]just_lesbian_things 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think what you fail to recognize is the worst damage isn't necessarily to the people who get "brainwashed" but to bisexual and lesbian communities that have to deal with their memberships being affected by this including that there are now a massive amount of bihet women speaking on behalf of lesbians and bisexual women to the detriment of actual lesbian and bisexual women.

No, I didn't fail to recognize it. Your framing of it as people being "brainwashed" is what I disagree with. You make it sound like it's some sort of "gay propaganda" trying to convert heterosexual women. These people aren't victims of someone's evil agenda. They're at best morons and at worst self-centered asshats. I'm inclined to believe it's the latter. As far as I'm concerned, some self-involved idiot breaking up with her boyfriend because she dug up and read something stupid on the internet deserves all the terrible things that happen to her as a result of that. Not only do I have no sympathy for these women, I hate them for inserting themselves into lesbian spaces.

I'm tired of people trying to frame TQ supporters and these co-opting asshats as victims. They're terrible people doing terrible things. They lost my sympathy the moment they started doing things that hurt others. They should be held responsible for their behavior instead of getting a pass as being "misguided". If you see something bad happen and you don't do anything, you're an enabler. If you see someone doing something bad and you join in on it, you're a bad person. We live in an age of information where all the TQ criticism are just a few clicks away. They're no different than flat-earthers, holocaust deniers, or anti-vaxxers. Ignorance isn't an excuse.

Look at [...] how many actual lesbians have been convinced that they're not really women

Truth be told, I don't care. If they want to delude themselves and dedicate their life to full time LARP, that's on them. Nobody is required to be a lesbian. If, with the entirety of human knowledge at their finger tips, people still choose to be misinformed, then there's really no helping people like that. I just want men and bihet women to get out.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do think there's some kind of propaganda going on, but I don't think it was created by gay people, nor does it serve the interests of gay people, nor is it intended to. It directly harms gay people for all the reasons I've specified in comments throughout this post. I think there are also complex and intertwined causes and motivations behind what is going on including mental disorders, gender ideology, trauma, abuse, depression, loneliness, idolization of victimhood, identity politics, intersectional rot, sexism, etc. and I'm not interested in sorting people into exclusive "victim" and "victimizer" categories. I do have some level of sympathy for the people being deluded, but as I've said, I'm predominantly concerned about the wellbeing of lesbian and bisexual women and the effect on same-sex rights, public discourse about and understanding of homosexuality and bisexuality, etc. And that's why I posted in this forum specifically.

Truth be told, I don't care. If they want to delude themselves and dedicate their life to full time LARP, that's on them. Nobody is required to be a lesbian. If, with the entirety of human knowledge at their finger tips, people still choose to be misinformed, then there's really no helping people like that. I just want men and bihet women to get out.

Cool, but it's all related. They're not going to get out as long as lesbianism is being marketed as an identity and lifestyle that anyone can opt into or out of. And as of right now, these people -- non-lesbians and lesbians who want to be seen as something else -- are controlling the discourse on what a lesbian is.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I would love to hear more about the perspective of bisexual women reading the Master Doc, and whether you are seeing any of the effects of this.

Whatever effects there may be, afraid that I'm probably not gonna see 'em (too isolated), but here's my perspective on the Master Doc itself:

  • It is, of course, very troubling (and perhaps telling) that bisexuals aren't mentioned even ONCE. Not only for our sake (what with being so often ignored/dismissed/disparaged), but also that of lesbians, and even heterosexual women: bi omission facilitates pressuring both the latter and us to identify as the former. Don't know if this was the intention, but (along with assuring readers that men can TOTES be lesbians too!), it makes me suspicious.
  • Leaving out bi-ness also obscures the fact that: clear attraction to women + unclear attraction to men ≠ lesbian. This may well describe bi women who are Kinsey 4s or 5s (thus inherently same-sex-leaning), have conflicted feelings about men (due to fear of male violence, discomfort with sexist attitudes, etc.), and/or experience attraction to the sexes in a naturally apples-and-oranges way (so OF COURSE these two different sets of responses won't "match up"!). If all of this isn't factored in, you just aren't understanding bisexuals... or, for that matter, lesbians.
  • Kinda creepy that neither bi nor straight women are told that they don't have to date men, isn't it? Am I to infer that, unless you're just not male-attracted at all, this is somehow an obligation? Seems particularly egregious when there's even a term for bi women with a same-sex-only dating policy! (i.e., "febfem" = Female-Exclusive Bisexual FEMale)

Overall, I think that calling attention to the possible role of "comphet" (or more accurately, the unwritten rule that everything about women-- our sexuality included-- must revolve around men) for lesbians isn't a bad thing, per se. At the risk of being told to stay in my lane, from what I understand, there are those who DO experience this. However, I'd guess that it's a minority, and probably girls more than women... the opposite of what the Master Doc suggests. So that's one cause for concern.

Another is how it completely ignores any reason for not recognizing one's lesbianism OTHER than "comphet". Despite there being lots which are far more prevalent. How about fear of social stigma and scrutiny? Or of being fetishized by creepy (or worse) "can-I-watch?" men? Did the Master Doc give these a miss cuz they're not male-oriented enough, and/or useless for talking bi and straight women into IDing as lesbians?

Finally, I think that inviting women to call themselves lesbian MUST be accompanied by an emphasis on what this really means-- the vulnerability of the group you're set on joining, and the consideration which everyone owes them as a result. Especially these days, when they're all but under siege by male "genderists". The LAST thing that lesbians need now is further invasion, dilution, and demands that they cater to other people.

[–]NutterButterFlutterStill waving into the void 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You expressed everything so well in your write-up on s/lesbians!

Reading the AIAL-MD, tons of what's said jumps out at me as a bisexual who was once questioning my own sexuality as a young adult. It's very male-centric and encourages us to figure out our sexuality based on them, rather than on women. It's pigeonholing women into "not men", and same-sex attraction to be "not men" too. It also pulls in a lot of stereotypes that, lets face facts, both het and bi young women do during our exploration phase ... as ways to somehow mean we're lesbians? What?

When I was young I never really questioned being attracted to men since it was normalized, but I questioned quite a bit what my feelings and attractions towards women were. As I grew into my 20s and 30s, it flipped (maybe because I was exclusively dating women for several years), and I started questioning what my feelings and attractions towards men actually meant.

I feel like I have a pretty good understanding on what bisexuality is for me now ... and reading that document was a roller-coaster. It was like every single possible thought from childhood through adulthood just got mis-mashed together and called "you're a lesbian now!".

No wonder lesbians are being erased so heavily. You're absolutely correct that sexuality has become like a "choose your own adventure" thanks to TRAs and gender ideology.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for your insights. This must be a total mindfuck for a bi woman who is not as settled in understanding her sexual orientation and sexuality as you are. And you are exactly right that the Master Doc, like gender ideology, assumes the existence of two categories: Men and non-men. So if you can convince yourself you're not really that attracted to men or wouldn't be happy with men, that means you are into disembodied non-men and, are, therefore, a lesbian, if you want to be. Like how many men in r/AGB call themselves non-binary or another weird non-man label? Go into any place for lesbi women and it seems like everyone is nonbinary and/or some other weird non-woman label. So it is just men and other. We're seeing this IRL outside of LGBT spaces with awards categories, bathrooms, prisons, etc. What used to be for women is now the dumping ground.

Unfortunately in r/LBL, the MasterDoc and "CompHet" seem to come up in virtually every post. If an OP has any question about themselves or makes any self-observation, they are universally directed to check out the MasterDoc. On the Lesbian Chronicles Podcast (a podcast by and for LBLs), instead of explaining how they came to the realization they were lesbians, the hosts Ali and Melisa just summarily directed their listeners to the MasterDoc and say "it's all in there." Meanwhile they avoid discussing so many important topics for LBLs and instead focus on selling their new lesbian lifestyles as all fun and games with everything working itself out and no real struggles. All of this together is unsettling.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Honestly, anyone who uses the internet as the primary vehicle to "discovering" their sexuality/gender is an idiot. There are some things you just can't work out without real life experience.

[–][deleted] 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Like actually feeling attraction to women. I know it's common for some lesbians to take a few years to realize that the way they like girls isn't the same as straight women but once I hit puberty it just became very obvious and hard to deny. The body just responds. I didn't need to read a google document to figure it out.

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, all the tools to figure out your sexuality are in your body and brain already. A lot of the people asking these questions just need to get out of the house.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

From r/LBL, a lot of them feel trapped in their lives such as in a bad marriage with kids, they may have trauma, and/or some disorder that causes them to not have a stable identity. These are straight women who have no idea what it feels like to be attracted to women and grow up that way. They see lesbianism as an escape.

[–]Rag3 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I’ve never read the master doc but looking at the table of contents:

Take note of how many times it mentions men and vs women.

Am I a Lesbian?

What is Compulsory Heterosexuality?

How do I know if I’m a lesbian?

But I like fictional men/male celebrities..

But I think I’ve Liked men before?

Conflicting Feelings About Men

... of Compulsory Heterosexuality Attraction’ tomen

Relationships with men

Sex and Intimacy with men

Early interest in women (Ahhh finally... kind of...)

The ‘straight’ version of you (Includes men)

Exploring attraction to women (another one! That makes 2)

Gender Feelings (who cares)

Considering lesbianism (Shouldn’t this be contained under exploring your attraction to females? Whatever that means... )

Attraction VS. Compulsory Heterosexuality (whatever happened to not pigeonholing yourself into lesbianism? It’s okay to be bi/straight if you’re not a lesbian ?)

...

It’s ridiculous and I’ve no idea how anyone could read that table of contents and want to read this "primer". It feels like it’s promoting a lifestyle instead of sex based attraction.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries"[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yep and this is the Bible of r/LBL. It's pinned in the side bar along with another really terrible guide called "Things Straight Women Don't Say To Themselves" where a bad relationship with a selfish, homophobic, abusive man is used as the main basis for the author's determination that she must be a lesbian, when she could also easily be bisexual because what shitty men do does not determine our sexual orientation.

I often find that in r/LBL, it's often the openly bi women who have the most self-awareness, are the most reasonable, and have the healthiest attitudes toward men.

[–]BigMommyMilkersYes, they're real 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That guide lmao

"I enjoy the sense of power and achievement I feel when a man comes" I'm pretty sure that's exactly what straight women say to themselves. This guide reads more like a bisexual woman coming to terms with her bisexuality rather than someone being a late blooming lesbian.