Such progress!

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[–]pacmanla 35 insightful - 1 fun35 insightful - 0 fun36 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, this. They're basically doing this to every biological man & woman who's not into someone just "identifying" as a SEX, so they can gain sexual access to people who's not interested in them.

[–][deleted] 32 insightful - 1 fun32 insightful - 0 fun33 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's jarring for me how people don't see the conversion therapy parallels.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 24 insightful - 4 fun24 insightful - 3 fun25 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Tbh I think most people have no idea of what standard conversion therapy entailed. They think it’s just Jesus-y pray the gay away stuff. Now it’s prey the gay away.

[–]fuck_reddit 18 insightful - 7 fun18 insightful - 6 fun19 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Unrealistic, trans people never smile. They always find something to be angry about. /s but only partially lol. In seriousness, good illustration!

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (13 children)

But also meanwhile -

Gay guy: I love being a man into men, I am happy this way. TRAs: GRRRR YOU TRANSPHOBIC BIGOT NAZI, LIKE TRANS MEN OR DIE!

Me: Hey I don't like being homosexual for complicated and personal reasons beyond "gay bad" or "internalized homophobia." While I fully acknowledge that some homosexuals are happy being that way and don't wish to change, and accept that, for my personally it feels like there is a "mix up" in my brain that prevents me from forming healthy attraction and relationships. Is it possible for someone to do some research into this, to see if there's any link between my unusual sexuality & other underlying conditions I may have, and if there's a potential way I could get treatment to steer me down a healthier path through real therapy and self-conditioning? I just feel like I can't be happy this way and my life would improve if I was able to be attracted to women.

TRAs: NOOOO baby uwu YOU ARE A VALID SWEET PRECIOUS WITTLE GAY AND THERE'S NOTHING YOU CAN DO!!! u r BORN THIS WAY SWEETIE you have INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA sskkaklsaslakdl here let me help you A C C E P T Y O U R Q U E E R N E S S askaksa sksksksksksksks;;;; you are fabulous how you are honey uwu

I just think it's fucking hilarious that they're obsessed with "converting" people who are HAPPY being homosexual but then the second that one of us steps forward and WANTS to change they're back to "no uwu gay is good accept yourself sweetie!!!1"

This is also why a lot of homosexuals are now feeling more comfortable with right wing communities, because despite their many flaws at least they don't tell people like me "SKSKAKJS HONEY NOOOOO INTERNALIZED HOMOPHOBIA UR TOO DUMB TO THINK! PLEASE I NEED YOU TO BE A FABULOUS QUEER SO I CAN FETISHIZE YOU". (Granted, right wing advice tends to be along the lines of "bro just go to the gym and take testosterone to remove the gay", which is equally unhelpful, but still.)

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Serious and not loaded question: Do you really think being able to be attracted to women would be the easiest/best way to improve your life? I know you said you have no romantic attraction to men, so what about being able to form healthier relationships with men? Or do you view that as a lost cause because you believe that even if you could be romantically interested in men, that too much of the problem remains on their end?

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I do not believe it's possible for me to have healthier relationships with men solely because the very idea disgusts me. I cannot put it into words beyond "It feels wrong", but I can relate to say, how lesbians describe being with a guy and it not feeling right to them. I may be attracted to male genitalia and only desire gay sex, but I have never been attracted to a real man and cannot see myself being attracted to one. They are inherently repulsive or offputting to me, and the mere idea of imagining myself being in a relationship with a man makes me feel highly uncomfortable.

In short: I simply don't want to have relationships with men because I cannot see the appeal.

I am fully aware it's contradictory and this is why I believe my sexuality is either a disorder in itself, or a symptom of an underlying problem (such as a neurological disorder)

From where I see things, it would be theoretically easier for me to not be repulsed by female genitalia (and I don't know why that is, either) than it is to learn to be attracted to men. To be clear I don't think either is "easy" to fix and I think it's most likely something wrong with my brain, considering I have symptoms of other neurological issues. It may never be fixed.

But, as hard as this is to put into words, I have some "straight" behaviors or feelings that gay men don't seem to have, and I lack many of the feelings gay men do have. It's like once every few months I think I have heterosexual desire, but it fades really fast, or I simply can't act on it because female genitalia freak me out and my body is more accustomed to gay sex. (I think I only have myself to blame for that last part)

[–]nosympathy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hi Salty, could you explain the difference between your line of thinking "I hate being gay, my life would be better if I were straight" and TRA's "I hate being a man, my life would be better if I were a woman"?

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Uh... because sex and sexuality are two very different things, for starters? That in itself is a false equivalence. You are born with a sex; it's very physical. Sexuality? Evidence points to it being environmental, and it seems to be more of a mental process. Nobody can point at a baby and say "yep, your son there is gay."

Secondly, being male in itself... isn't specific or limited. Like, there's not stuff I'm missing out on by being a guy. But I am missing out on stuff by being gay. I can't have biological kids ethically (in my opinion. I believe surrogacy to be unethical) and, in words I don't really know how to explain with a language barrier AND difficulty explaining these feelings to begin with - my sexuality feels "wrong." NOT morally "wrong", not religiously wrong, nothing to do with that. No, just a feeling of "this doesn't seem right."

I have undiagnosed neurological problems. I know this for a fact, there are distinct symptoms of neurological disorders with how I process the world. (Not autism, fyi, i know this sub loves to pull that out and use it to "explain" people being trans or whatever.) I don't think it's farfetched to say that it's possible my sexuality is truly just a fault in the brain (IN MY CASE. Not saying it's the same for everyone) and that's why it feels "wrong."

Let me try and explain this "wrongness" in a way that (hopefully) shows you what I mean.

I have never been with a guy and enjoyed it. This is a fact. While I am sexually attracted to male genitalia, I am not attracted to masculine secondary sex characteristics much, or even at all. It's really hard for me to be attracted to a real guy, truly. It's easier to say that I'm turned on by homosexual sex as an concept than it is to say I'm specifically attracted to real, specific, men because I am not. Due to this, my sexual experiences with guys have been emotionally distressing and have caused a reaction somewhere between fear and disgust. This is not "internalized homophobia." This is not me being afraid of "what society will think." This is my brain telling me "This isn't right, you don't like this, you're not compatible with these people." I don't know how to say it beyond that, it is a horrible feeling.

TL;DR I literally cannot have a boyfriend because very few men will not repulse me (despite me only being interested in male genitalia/homosexual intercourse) but I also cannot have a girlfriend because while their physical appearances don't repulse me, I am not attracted to them sexually and, in a weird way am almost afraid of female biology.

Thus I am incapable of holding healthy relationships. This is neither normal nor something to be celebrated. I am not "asexual" nor "aromantic" - I have a high and destructive sex drive and I hate being alone. In my current state, I am very miserable.

This could even be due to my disorder of sexual development - maybe having screwed up hormones/chromosomes and mixed sex characteristics myself is causing a conflicting sexuality. However I doubt that because from what I've seen, other DSD/intersex males don't seem to have much issue with sexuality. Most of them are straight with no problems and I've never seen anyone else report an experience like mine.

So in all honestly I think it's likely brain damage or a fault in my brain that did not develop properly. But chances I will never know because researching the "cause" of homosexuality is too taboo and nobody can stop arguing about what is "homophobic" for five minutes to actually get some facts confirmed.

Transgenderism is nothing like this. I've personally never been trans identified, I've always been 100% happy as a male, especially a gender non conforming male. There have times where I have thought "I wish I was female so I could fit in", but only for a split second, I would never be able to go through with it because I am fully comfortable being male and like I said, female biology kind of freaks me out for some reason. (I don't mean any offense, radfems please resist urge to type out angry replies, I'm just saying personally I wouldn't be able to handle the switch - if changing sex was actually possible. Which it isn't.)

Transgender people choose to be transgender usually because of: - a fetish - not fitting in and wanting to be accepted - a response to sexual abuse, ie wanting to "become a man" after being sexually abused as a female

None of which apply to my feelings on my sexuality. I don't have a "fetish for being straight." I wasn't fine with men until a random sexual mistreatment and then I hated it (I have never liked the idea of being with a man), and this has nothing to do with "fitting in." While I do feel outcast from society, that's mostly due to me having a DSD and being gender non conforming, and I know I never will. I have made peace with that, mostly.

I'd rather ask you; why do you think these statements are remotely comparable despite being about totally different concepts? Are you aware that falsely equating sex and sexual orientation is, in itself, a TRA argument?

[–]nosympathy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It is not a false equivalence. The more sane trans people (not the fetishist ones) don't actually believe they can change their sex, all they want is to be perceived by others as the opposite sex. That could also be described as a mental process. I'm comparing the two because both wish to change something that they can't change about themselves (as of yet).

Also, the evidence does NOT point to homosexuality being environmental. At most, it would be a combination of biological and environmental factors, so a biological predisposition is also involved. Either way, the fact that it is a "mental process" doesn't mean that you can just think your way out of it or whatever. Even the most common mental disorders are known to not being eradicated by therapy and medication, they can only be managed to cause the least amount of distress as possible. Even if you think you just have a mental condition that you could go to therapy for, the therapist would not be able to "fix you".

Maybe at some point in the future, with science and research, we could find out exactly how these things happen (and thus it could lead to a way to reverse them). But this is not possible yet. As far as I know, it is still of interest of the scientific community to find out what causes homosexuality, so you blaming your suffering on the activist screaming HOMOPHOBIA REEEE doesn't even make sense.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

That's also not true, though.

At most, it would be a combination of biological and environmental factors, so a biological predisposition is also involved.

So far nobody has found any concrete evidence towards it being biological. I'm not sure why you'd want it to be either, because this exactly how we start steering towards giving babies with "the gay gene" (or whatever it may be) away/choosing not to have them.

Either way, the fact that it is a "mental process" doesn't mean that you can just think your way out of it or whatever.

And I never said it was that easy. I'm fully aware that 1. It's not, and 2. I may never find a solution. The same could be said for my mental disorders. People can and do recover from mental illness, but I've had mine for as long as I can remember and they don't easily go away.

All I want is the chance to try and recover, both from mental illness and to fix whatever's wrong with my sexuality. The problem is people don't even give me the option, I'm apparently not allowed to make these decisions for myself as an adult and it's inherently "homophobic" of me to question it.

Once again, sex and sexual orientation are entirely different concepts. It is therefore a false equivalence because the two concepts are not equivalent, and not comparable.

A comparison that actually works would be: How is telling me that I need to "get over my internalized homophobia" and accept being gay, even if it causes me problems and I don't even function like other homosexuals, not the same as a TRA telling me I have "internalized transphobia" and need to become MTF because I'm "girly", even if I like the way I am?

Why is my choice "bigoted" and wrong if it only affects me?

so you blaming your suffering on the activist screaming HOMOPHOBIA REEEE doesn't even make sense.

LGBT activists are quite literally the ones preventing this research from being done, though, that's my point. If society wasn't pushing the idea that gay = a gift from god and that questioning it makes you a literal Nazi, I believe we'd be miles ahead in understanding why it happens and how. I mean fuck, some countries are banning "conversion therapy" so hard that it extends to refusing to let someone "transition" - that's how fucked things are. Until the majority people do away with this line of thinking that being trans isn't fantastic and that you're not allowed to question or dislike your homosexuality, we'll never make progress in scientific research, because people can and do quite literally campaign to have those sorts of things banned.

I'm angry because if it wasn't for shitty activism, I might of found a way to cope by now.

[–]nosympathy 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well, saying that it's environmental could also lead people to be like "if we raise our children well we can prevent them from becoming gay!!" or whatever. Both sides could use either explanation to further an agenda.

And your comparison doesn't make sense. Since you already are homosexual, it makes more sense to accept it than to try to change it. If you're a man, it would be harder to change yourself into a woman. I compared them because of the similar thought process: a person that has an unchangeable trait (being a man/woman & being gay), which causes them distress. Instead of trying to live with it, they fixate on the idea that they could someday change their sex/sexual orientation. You seem to think that just because you don't like being gay, it is "a mistake" or a disorder. In the same manner, trans people assume that because they don't like their sex, it was "a mistake" and they were "born in the wrong body".

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Since you already are homosexual, it makes more sense to accept it than to try to change it

"Since I am already depressed it makes more sense to accept it and continue living an unproductive life than try to change it." What? I seriously don't understand the logic here.

If you're a man, it would be harder to change yourself into a woman.

"Harder?" Changing sex is impossible.

a person that has an unchangeable trait (being a man/woman & being gay),

The issue here is that you seem to think that sexual orientation is a distinct, innate physical feature, like sex, or your height. It is not.

You seem to think that just because you don't like being gay, it is "a mistake" or a disorder.

Because I don't just dislike it for random reasons or because of "society." I am literally incapable of holding healthy relationships because I am repulsed by men and feel unsafe with them, like I'm not supposed to be with them, but I can't feel attraction to women & female genitalia kind of freak me out. I have never loved a man, I don't believe I ever will, and I've never even been truly sexually attracted to a real male.

And before you say it, no, I am not "asexual" nor "aromantic" and neither of those concepts are remotely healthy. I am very miserable alone, but like I said, how exactly do you hold a healthy relationship when your sexuality contradicts itself?

Everything in me says it's "wrong" - not morally, but functionally. I believe there is something wrong with my brain that causes this contradiction or "mismatch." I have other neurological symptoms, especially around sensory matters, so it is not farfetched to say that my "broken" sexuality is indeed part of it. On top of that I had a terrible childhood, which I believe was either the cause or a seriously big factor.

To put it simply, I cannot "accept" my homosexuality because there is nothing to accept. By telling me to accept it, you are telling me "It's okay that you're miserable and incapable of having a relationship, it's okay that your body sexually responds to penises but the idea of being with men makes you extremely uncomfortable. You need to put yourself into an unhealthy relationship and embrace feeling scared, hurt, and confused!"

This is NOT in any way comparable to a fetishist or an idiot who decides they "want to be a woman" for arbitrary reasons. I have yet to see a trans person who ACTUALLY has something wrong that would justify a hypothetical "sex change", their reasons are usually trivial and superficial. Comparing TRA nonsense to my situation is really ignorant, not to mention it doesn't even work.

All I want to do is to be normal and be able to have healthy relationships and not be alone. That is not too much to ask, and it is EXTREMELY different from demanding impossible "sex changes" because someone watched too much anime porn.

[–]nosympathy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You seem to forget that not all trans people transition because of a fetish or for social acceptance. What you're describing is exactly how many trans people describe dysphoria, and how they just feel "wrong" in their body - also not because of any moral/social reasons.

Also I don't believe that "accepting that you're gay" means "forcing yourself to be in unhealthy relationships". If you want to be in a relationship, it would either be with a man or with a woman, and both options seem unsatisfactory for you either way. So you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. I sympathize with your situation, and since I'm not qualified to help you, I'll just leave you with this: why do you think learning to like female genitalia would be preferable over learning to not be repulsed by men? Most people would assume that you just want a healthy sexuality, not a straight one. That is probably why people are accusing you of internalized homophobia.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, it's nothing like "dysphoria." "Dysphoria" is a made up concept, and it doesn't prevent someone from having healthy relationships.

why do you think learning to like female genitalia would be preferable over learning to not be repulsed by men?

Because;

  1. The repulse towards men seems way, WAY stronger than one part of the female body.
  2. I have what I can only describe as occasional "straight behaviors" that gay men don't seem to have. I find myself wishing I had a female partner and that I could have biological kids, those thoughts come naturally to me, I just can't act on them because sex with women is not something my body responds to, and mentally, part of it causes me discomfort. This level of discomfort also varies. My discomfort with men does not.
  3. I do not believe most men are capable of love, what I have seen from the "gay community" is a disaster, and if I have a choice then I am not going to deal with the disaster of trying to find a male partner actually capable of love and dodging all the weird "culture"/stereotyping/toxicity that comes from "the gay community."
  4. It's simply what I want. Why is that an issue?

Most people would assume that you just want a healthy sexuality, not a straight one. That is probably why people are accusing you of internalized homophobia.

You have to remember that heterosexuality is the natural and expected for beings that reproduce sexually. Again, why is it an issue if I think that's right for me? I truly believe I wouldn't have turned out homosexual if I had a healthy childhood, and some heterosexual instincts are clearly still in me, so why wouldn't it make sense that this is the healthy option for me?

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My comment was removed by the automod for using a shorthandword connecting trans people to incels. No idea how that is a slur in any meaningful sense especially when there is no better word that communicates the same relevant content, but here is my modified comment:

While it’s an interesting question, there are clearly different motivations for the men who want to be women. Which ones in particular are you most concerned with comparing to? HSTS, AGPs with a humiliation/sissification fetish engaging in slum tourism, or misogynistic trans people with sexual entitlement (which may be either HSTS or AGP). I presume the first category?

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[removed]

    [–]automoderatorHuman-Exclusionary Radical Overlord[M] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Your submission has been removed due to:

    Rule 4. Disallowed Language

    Homophobia, slurs, and otherwise derogatory terms are not allowed. These include, but are not limited to: dyke, faggot, tranny, trap, troon, trancel

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    [–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 11 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 4 fun12 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

    I’ve noticed that both the 'doctor' and the transwoman look like Mr Garrison. Anyway, I was gonna this a 9.5/10, but then it occurred to me that the reason the one in the bottom centre has no bulge is fairly obvious, so you get a 10 out of 10 from me.

    [–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

    Needs more forearm scar.

    [–]Rosefield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

    Reminds me of South Park 😂