"Those who say chromosomes define sex, haven't seen their chromosomes"

submitted by xAcidRainx from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]WanderingWonderWizard Extraordinaire 41 insightful - 15 fun41 insightful - 14 fun42 insightful - 15 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah well none of you have actually ‘seen’ your gender feeling either so by that logic it’s also bullshit.

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

But you can see the gender euphoria stains they leave in their female family members' clothes! Checkmate, terfs!

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 8 insightful - 9 fun8 insightful - 8 fun9 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

"Is that a pistol in your pocket or gender euphoria?"

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

TRAs don't even try to define sex because they want to pretend that nothing can. They want to act like intersex is itself a sex. It's a misdirect on every level. Sex is not chromosomes. Sex is gametes, and Biologist Zach Elliot concisely explains how sex is gametes here. As he explains, "chromosomes are simply the genetic instruction which lead to the development of one's sex. They are not what defines sex, because other animals do not use XX and XY, or sex chromosomes at all, and we can still determine their sex."

[–]xAcidRainx[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the info

[–]ChodeSandwichtender and moist 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

TRAs and keyboard warriors seem to really enjoy using <5% sub-populations as shitty "gotchas" and weapons of social clout. They'll hound women for talking about their bodies because a tiny percentage of trans people might feel bad about it. They'll attack health&fitness influencers and claim that they're fighting anorexia by doing it. A tiny subset of intersex people with abnormal chromosomes means biology doesn't real somehow. I guess we're no longer bipedal mammals because technically some people are born +/- a leg. 🙄

[–]GoValidateYourselfuseful lesbian 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You can definitely "see" someone's chromosomes, 99% of the time. Unless they have an intersex condition, the genotype can always be inferred through the person's phenotype (the outward expression of their genes). Every biological function in your body relating to your sex is coded by your genes. Sure we don't have microscopic vision, but we are hardwired to distinguish male and female phenotypes at a glance. It's like you don't literally "see" a wavelength of light, but you "see" its effects, in the form of color.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 14 insightful - 4 fun14 insightful - 3 fun15 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Not to mention that with a sufficiently powerful microscope (and some training in biology but not very much) you can literally see chromosomes and identify X and Y. With sufficiently powerful technology you can identify even more detailed characteristics.

Fun story: on the basis of some computational biology data (DNAm) I once told a colleague, "subject 987 is a boy, not a girl". Colleague: "no, the records clearly state that subject 987 is a girl." Me: "ask the field people who collected the data". Result: data entry error confirmed, boy not girl.

Chromosomes are far more objectively verifiable than gender feelz.

[–][deleted] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

That TRAs are once again talking out of their ass and attempting to obscure facts to uphold their own agenda. I'm assuming they are using intersex folks in this equation, which would be idiotic to do bc intersex ppl still have a sex. They just have a DSD along with it that changes the development of their reproductive organs and secondary sex characteristics.

There are no true hermaphrodites amongst humans - either you have the potential to produce small gametes (male) or large gametes (female). Keyword here is potential bc you know how the TRAs love to use infertile ppl as a "gotcha."

To get more detailed info on chromosomes and the way they affect our sex and thus secondary sex characteristics, check out @zaelefty and @intersexfacts on twitter. They both explain this a lot better than I can, and I'm sure I fucked up somewhere since I'm not a biologist.

[–]denverkrisMy pronouns are Vodka?/Yes!/please 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A human who is born with only one leg or even with 3 legs doesnt prove that humans are not bipeds.

[–]MisandryFTW 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've seen my chromosomes; they're XX. (Got genetic testing done when my endocrinologist thought I might be intersex.)

However, according to biology it's definitively gamete size that determines sex. Females have larger gametes. I also make large gametes. If someone doesn't make gametes then you can use chromosomes, physical characteristics, and hormones to determine sex. For the majority of people gametes match chromosomes match genitals match hormones. As far as I'm concerned intersex folks can identify however they want, but most are biologically male or female, but with something that went medically wrong during development. The vast vast majority of intersex folk are identified as intersex either at birth or when something goes wrong with puberty. We don't have a huge chunk of the population walking around thinking they're the wrong sex just because they haven't specifically had their chromosomes checked recently. I wish biology denial wasn't part of the trans agenda.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

B-but what if a boy liked pink color when he was 1 year old?!

I wish biology denial wasn't part of the trans agenda.

I am happy it is - as with it they will annoy people much faster and their arguments are much weaker, so can easily be discarded.

[–]Shadow_Lurker 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Because we don't need to...

Our first and second sex characteristics are the product of our own biology and not artificial hormones or expensive cosmetic surgeries. People can just look and see us for what we are, unlike them...

[–]xAcidRainx[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I agree with what you're saying but just to be clear I'm not the one making this agurment lol just wanting to get everyone's opinion on it, since it's the new TRA talking point.

[–]Shadow_Lurker 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not the one making this agurment lol just wanting to get everyone's opinion on it, since it's the new TRA talking point.

Sorry if you though the response was for you because of the bad wording on my part lol

This "new" TRA talking point is not that new, since they have been trying to discredit the notion of biological sex for a long time now, using intersex people as means to do it.

There was this on chart where they explicitly "demonstrated" that sex was an spectrum using a series of intersex conditions as a base. I'm going to dig to see if I can find it.

[–]xAcidRainx[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No worries

[–]TovasshiDefinitely a house plant 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

They forget that 23&me and ancestry DNA tests are things.

If chromosomes weren't accurate, the hundreds of thousands of people that were tested would have tipped someone off by now. They're would have been a huge media storm and hundreds of scientific papers would have been published.

[–]denverkrisMy pronouns are Vodka?/Yes!/please 11 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I don't "see" the air i breathe either, but I know its there.

[–]Penguinberri 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I study and work in biology, I've seen my chromosomes and I've taught kids in year 7 how to see their own dna in their spit. I trust in science.

[–]CleverNickName 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

We solved this problem hundreds of years ago. If something is true 100% of the time it's been observed so far, it will most likely continue to be true in the future. We can't 100% be sure the sun is going to rise tomorrow, but if we know where the sun and the Earth are and that Earth continues spinning, the sun will rise tomorrow.

If XY makes testes and XX makes ova (and whatever the other much rarer chromosome combinations result in), then we don't have to take everybody's cells under a microscope. We know what determines sex, and we know why the sun rises.

These people wake up to a cloud-cover and go "AHA! You didn't see the sun rise!"

[–]julesburm1891 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Imagine the reaction if any other group but TQ tried to argue that DNA wasn’t real and didn’t impact life.

[–]GConly 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Sex is defined by gonads not chromosomes.

This is done for a good reason in biology. Some animals sex change, some don't decide sex by genetics.

Pretty sure most adults know what gonads they have.

[–]BiHorror 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Majority of people who haven't seen their chromosomes aren't intersex. Regardless if they were or weren't, did or didn't know, that doesn't change the fact that there's only two sexes. Intersex people are still male or female. Chromosomes is one of the many parts that do define sex. Especially in non-intersex cases.

It's both sad and hilarious that they stooped that low to use DSD as props for their bullshit.

[–]fuck_reddit 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I knew someone with an intersex condition, and you can see it. He was entirely male, but his condition made it very difficult for him to put on weight (muscle or fat), and he told me he was lucky in that he could have developed female secondary-sex characteristics. I wouldn't have been able to pick him out of a crowd, but it's not like your chromosomes have 0 effect on your appearance (hard to believe, I know).

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm an intersex male who did develop female secondary sex characteristics. I think I'm more on the extreme end of the scale, but even in "milder" forms there are still visual differences (and differences in voice and things too)

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here's my take: Diagnosed XXY males know their chromosomes, yet still know they're male.

Also, unless you have symptoms of a disorder of sexual development, you are going to be a normal XX female or XY male 99.8% of the time. And if you DO have a DSD it's usually pretty obvious that something is up. After puberty I didn't "masculinize", I don't have facial hair or a voice in the male range. While I'm no expert, and haven't had a proper diagnosis due to shitty local healthcare, I can say with confidence that there is a slim chance that my chromosomes are XY.

Saying that intersex people are "A normal variation in sex" and not a disorder is ironically counter-productive and offensive. It's actually super condescending to be told "no sweetie, there's nothing wrong with you, embrace your biological queerness uwu". It is a disorder, but you know what? I'm fine with that. I'm okay with being a genetic fuck-up.

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Saying that chromosomes don't determine sex because conditions like klinefelter syndrome or swyer syndrome exist is like saying that humans don't have two legs because thalidomide babies exist.

[–]VioletRemiCat, homosexual one 10 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

It is typical MRA way of discussion: "You know, some women rape too, out of all rapists -1% are women! So it is not male violence problem and you can't blame males for it!".