Men's IssuesShit hits fan on gay male group gone TQ+

submitted by JulienMayfair from self.LGBDropTheT

This morning, a TQ+ partisan posted criticism of the idea that "Mens Gatherings" like the California Mens Gathering still exist, provoking an upwelling of dissent.

The gloves are REALLY starting to come off. A number of people are defending men's right to have men's events if the want to or if they feel the need to.

And, of course, the opposition is screaming TRANSPHOBIA! AND MISOGYNY! How dare gay men center an oppressor identity. Note that simply being male is now construed by them to be inherently oppressive.

Among the comments:

I've noticed there's a lot of underlying homophobia in allegedly progressive queer spaces.

No shit.

The backlash is in motion, my friends. The TQ+ are overplaying their hand, and gay men are turning around and saying "no." Their authoritarianism is becoming too blatant and heavy-handed.

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[–]JulienMayfair[S] 44 insightful - 8 fun44 insightful - 7 fun45 insightful - 8 fun -  (12 children)

Update: And now the T there are playing the "This is making me feel unsafe, and I may have to leave" card. What crybullies they are. One the one hand, they've maneuvered themselves into mod positions where they can ban anyone they like, but on the other, they have to play the victim whenever someone doesn't kiss their asses.

Edit: And now they've dragged racism (Strategy #2) into it, even though no one on the gay side mentioned race.

And here comes Strategy #3: Denounce anyone who disagrees with you as having "archaic ideas about gender." No has told anyone else that they need to educate themselves -- yet. The TQ+ congratulate themselves on being so sophisticated.

Edit 2: The shit is now flying so fast that even the TQ+ are attacking each other. One said that he thought gay men who wanted gay male only spaces should just so somewhere else. Another one attacked him asking if that meant he thought it would be OK to have a whites only group. (I guess by implication, the second guy is saying that it's not even OK for gay men to leave the group; they have to stay there and support the TQ+ even while they're being told to shut up.) The first attacked back saying that the second had a toxic need to "school" people even though they are basically on the same side.

Edit 3: Now lots of people are commenting on "how toxic this group is." They're not wrong, but they probably won't have the courage to say that the toxicity came in with the drive to be inclusive and centering of the QT+.

Edit 4: There are now 449 (!) posts on this one thread with people going back and forth, mostly trashing each other. I think one of the myths underlying the whole mess is that there is something known as the LGBTQIA+++ community. No, it's not a community. It's a bunch of people whose interests don't really align, and if you force them together, the only way to do it is by actively silencing dissent.

Edit 5: And speaking of actively silencing dissent, the Mod Police are now on the scene with this comment:

Hey, Moderator here. Just a reminder to flag transphobic and transexclusionary comments. They go against or community guidelines and have no place here. We don’t know they’re there if you don’t flag them for us. Thanks for your help!

Gotta ban the wrongthinkers.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

God what a bunch of fucking pit vipers. How the hell do we wrest our lives back from this sea of mental illness and personality disorders.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 17 insightful - 1 fun17 insightful - 0 fun18 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm reminded of Douglas Murray and his critique of identity politics. I've been saying for a long time that identity politics is a dead end road, but Murray points out the truly repugnant behavior it elicits from people who actually think of themselves as virtuous. Like I wrote above, in this thread, we actually had identity politics warriors attacking each other. It breeds a kind of meanness in people like few things I've ever seen. At this point, with these people, if you're a cis gay guy, you're basically trash, and you should, to quote them, NEVER be trying to center yourself.

To them, the idea that gay men might have an event for gay men is tantamount to a KKK rally. Seriously.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've just been reading through the responses to John Cleese over his support of JK Rowling and it really makes me despair for the future of young gay and lesbian people.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What have you noticed? Do you mean they're joining in, or just that there are lot of rabid, homophobic, misogynistic gender ideologues?

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolute rage that he dares to question gender extremist orthodoxy and support her right to free speech. And yes some LGB people are caught up in it. They just can't see the forest for the trees.

[–]GConly 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Identity politics is a divide and conquer strategy devised by Marxists to damage our society to the point its weak enough that they can swoop in and have a revolution to seize power. If we are all fighting each other, we won't fight to defend each other.

Pretty sure what's going on in America right now is the early stages of an attempted coup.

Expect the Dems to declare voter fraud after this election if they lose to try overturning the result.

[–]queerone 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

Aw, please don't compare sneks to these batshit insane TRAs. 🐍

[–]turtleduck23 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

can you post screenshots?

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not set up to, and I'd prefer not to, since it's a private group. I don't think a few anonymous quotes will hurt.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

is it a reddit group?

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. We had (or had) or own website.

[–]IridescentAnacondastrictly dickly 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Here's the theoretical perspective on what you've just described:

https://newdiscourses.com/2020/09/great-silencing-america-hallmarks-woke-totalitarianism/

[–]turtleduck23 28 insightful - 3 fun28 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

lesbians can't have lesbian only meetings and now they are targeting gay men. soon gays and lesbians won't be able to meet and somewhere bible thumpers will be in aw over how this group was able to bully gays and lesbians groups into doing what they say in a matter of a few years and not face public backlash.

[–]peaked2020 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Because many of the gays and lesbians agree with them... we are fighting ourselves as well.

[–]Three_oneFourWanted for thought crimes in countless ideologies 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And that's the problem. It was difficult for conservatives to actually convince someone with same sex attraction that they were indeed evil and actually fight FOR the conservatives, yet the TRAs have countless gay men and women who are now ashamed of their sexuality and actively hateful of any woman who refuses to suck a girldick and any man who refuses to eat a mancoochie.

They just whine and cry and their simps come to fight us, not knowing that they are being used to destroy themselves

[–]QueenBread 27 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 0 fun28 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Maybe I'm optimistic, but yep, I think the whole thing is going to crumble by itself because those people are TOO crazy.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not just too crazy, but too blatantly telling other people whom they're allowed to associate with.

[–]FrostyNugsI'm allergic to nuts 22 insightful - 7 fun22 insightful - 6 fun23 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

Sorry guys, you don't have enough oppression points to have men-only gatherings. Wanting to meet up with other dudes is LITERAL MISOGYNY. Try identifying as donglovergender and holding a meeting for amab donglovergenders.

[–]fuckupaddamsBisexual Terve 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Somehow women don't have enough oppression points to want to be able to have women only gatherings either.

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

donglovergender

Idk, that sounds like merely a Genital Preference to me. Privilege +100. Game Over, man.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If true, I hope these gay men do not relent to the TQ crowd.

[–]IAmSatanVery... very... very gay. 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Excellent. Just like I predicted. I love how predictable the queer+ woke activists are. <3

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

if a black group wanted a black only group, they would all agree. So it's not weird for an all male or all female group to exist.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh, no, they have an answer for this. If you're officially OppressedTM, then you can have a group for yourself. Thus, trans people can have a group for themselves. Black people can have a group for themselves. But cis men having a group for themselves? Not allowed. They're very explicit about this.

[–]fuckupaddamsBisexual Terve 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's not true, women (the most consistently oppressed group for all of our human history in my very honest fucking opinion) can't have our own groups anymore either.

[–]divingrightintowork 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Is this basically like a gay man's michfest or something like that? AKA Is it going to be the next Michfest? Where is all of this dialogue going down?

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

It's going down on the group's website. This group started out in the 1980s as a kind of New Age/gay activist group, and for decades, it was a group run by and for gay men. Then, the younger members started to push the whole inclusivity for inclusivity's sake argument so that now, pretty much anyone can join in, including women. (Not being open to women was now "misogyny" even though it was never more than a small group with nothing approaching any kind of social power.) Then, as the whole TQ+ move happened, they started to demand to be part of our group. Over time, they maneuvered themselves into moderator positions on our website, and a little over a year ago, in response to continuing friction over whether we were supposed to be a group for gay men, they issued a pronouncement that anyone advocating events only for gay men would be banned from the website.

It's a bit like MichFest, but there's no big festival or anything like that.

Basically, for these kids, the idea that gay men can have anything for themselves, even a private social group that provides no services, is misogynistic, transphobic, and somehow racist even though we've always had black, Latino, and Asian members. It's an example of how the TQ+ feel compelled to demand access to every social group and then demand to be "centered" within that group. To have any space that isn't taken over by them is "oppression."

[–]divingrightintowork 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Oh that's really interesting! And not entirely in the good sort of way. It makes me think of this gay retreat and upstate New York that I was invited to go to to teach a workshop at, they were starting to try to be more queer inclusive and expand outside of gay men's stuff, including gay trans men, etc. That there were definitely some growing pains, because well gay trans men aren't really men by most any functional definition of gay manhood... And a lot of the workshops were, challenging to say the least, as a lot of them were basically hands-on sex workshops which will generally be pretty penis-oriented.

This was all about 4 years ago when things were only starting to loosen up, I wonder what state the place is in now...

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have a feeling it was a branch of this group.

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Here's another post that illustrates the problem.

From a young, white, non-binary male:

This thread is such a vivid and highlighted example of the transphobia, racism and cis-centric power dynamics within our community. the level of defensiveness of the idea that cis gay men are so oppressed by the queer community, and the support of the idea that white only spaces (where white people don’t have to be around other groups and won’t have to have the same level of accountability) are not racist because black only spaces can exist (to have relief from systems of white supremacy and oppression). I love our community and am also continually saddened about the ways that oppression and discrimination are constantly brushed aside and justified by various excuses like ‘the elders came from different times, it’s hard/not fair to expect them to gender people properly or understand this whole trans thing’ ‘gay men have always been oppressed and therefore can’t oppress others within the community.

1) No one was advocating "white only" spaces. This is complete strawmanning/gaslighting.

2) The odd obsession with race in a thread where no gay men brought up race is symptomatic of the extent to which the very specific paradigms from Critical Race Theory are fundamental to this whole worldview.

3) These kids have been taught to see the entire world in terms of crude identity category power dynamics.

4) No attention is paid to the idea that maybe yes "cis" gay men are now being treated badly by the TQ+. That's simply brushed aside. We had our group. It was colonized by the TQ+, and now, according to them, we are the "oppressors."

5) However, by becoming non-binary, a white male can magically flip himself into the position of being an oppressed trans person with the moral authority to lecture everyone else on their supposed moral failings. You can apparently shrug off a lifetime of "cis privilege" by a simple declaration of being non-binary.

6) And, of course, trans people can't oppress gay men due to the power dynamics of cis-supremacy.

[–]MiaXiang 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Race is always dragged into this discussion and it's offensive. Want to bring race into this? Let's talk Rachel Dolezal.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Just out of curiosity do you think white people should be allowed to have their own spaces?

[–]JulienMayfair[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

No, but if people do self-select, which we see in many areas of the culture, I don't automatically read that as a sign of systemic racism. For example, many churches are still de facto segregated even though there's no policy. It has to do with what people want in a religious service, and the style of church services in black churches tends to be very different from white churches. And then there's music. There are concerts that draw majority white audiences or majority black audiences. Some are mixed.

But I do buy part of their argument insofar as it's usually easy for white people in a majority white culture to be around people like them. Part of what this group I'm talking about did was have campouts for several days with only gay men allowed. That was something that gay men, especially 20 years ago, don't get to experience that much. It's hard to put it into words, but it was an important experience. I think it's the same for women. I know one woman who went to and all-female college, and she said it was a transformative experience for her. But that was self-selection. No one forces you to choose to go to an all-female college. And I can understand why black students would want a black student group if they're living in a majority white culture. I think in some cases that that can all be taken too far, but I don't have a problem with particular groups electing to have their own private space for specific reasons. I remember reading on GC about a transwoman who came to a workshop for pregnant women and acted pretty creepy. I think that workshop should have been limited to pregnant biological women, not a male-bodied person coming through as a tourist.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

no

You could have just stopped right there. Don't expect people to care about your space if you will exlude others from having theirs.

[–]MiaXiang 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Given that my wokest of woke friends on the TQ+ issue are gay men, I am kind of glad for this. Sucks, but really, I'm tired of the JK Rowling dissing in my fb feed. Maybe they will finally get what's at stake.