LGB HistoryLGBT "rights" by country. (Calling all fact checkers)

submitted by OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" from self.LGBDropTheT

I'm trying to get a decent idea of which countries LGBT (especially the T) have more "rights" aka privileges over other groups. For example in Iceland, when they passed a law that allows anyone to change their "legal gender" without any diagnosis, proof of sincerity, or commitment, they were also going to introduce a law that prevents intersex children being forcibly given "sex reassignment surgery" to try and "fix" them. However, that was later retracted and no protections for intersex people were included to apparently "give the (gender) law a higher chance of passing." That's right. They removed bodily autonomy for intersex people because they believed people would be less likely to allow a gender identification law to pass if they wanted to protect them.

Doesn't that tell you enough about these "progressive" first world countries?

Anyway, Wikipedia has a list of "LGBT rights per country" and a page for all or most countries, but is HORRIBLY biased and worded in a very emotional way. It's also full of misconceptions, rumors, or blatant lies. The page for Russia for example is very bad.

So I don't think (unsurpisingly) Wikipedia is an honest source. I was wondering if there's any place that does have factual, unbiased information, to easily compare between countries.

In short I want to especially expose which "progressive" countries have more trans/LGBT privileges than other groups have, because TRAs act like trans people and LGBT are the most oppressed and underprivileged in even first world countries, but that's simply not true. From the little I know, it seems like intersex people and people with disabilities tend to have way worse than LGBT in "progressive" countries.

Also on a side note, I hate that sites like Wikipedia are written portraying the ability to change your "legal sex" or gain access to IVF a "human right." Some people literally can be mutilated at birth or denied important medical care, and TRAs/LGBT think it's a "hate crime" to not give them privileges like lying on their documents or access to artificial pregnancies. It really pisses me off.

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[–]Smolders1Cock is god's greatest gift. 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

Something like this?

https://www.humandignitytrust.org/lgbt-the-law/map-of-criminalisation/?type_filter=crim_gender_exp

EDIT: Words.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (18 children)

Remind me again why we (The US) are allied with Saudi Arabia?

[–]our_team_is_winning 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Even with American energy independence, they want to keep the petrodollar going, and keep selling them weapons. Mostly the weapons sales I think. That's why we ignore the slaughter in Yemen. Slavery was still legal in KSA when JFK was President. Think about that.

There's a lot of same-sex sex going on over there though. I used to work with Saudis including some gay men. When they imprison or sentence someone, it's not so much the crime as who the person is, what their connections are. "Wasta" they call it.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Thanks for your reply. I agree on basically everything but would add that Slavery seems to still be alive and well in KSA, it just goes under a different name. Also what's Wasta mean?

Edit: I've heard the same thing about homosexuality and drug usage in Iran as well from people who have family there.

[–]our_team_is_winning 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

"Wasta" is what we'd call nepotism or having connections. I started using the Arabic word because it's shorter. In KSA, apparently a large number of people are "princes" or claim to be, and if you get stopped by the cops, for example, you do that "do you know who my father is!" thing and it works. Not saying that isn't true a lot of places, but according to my Gulf Arab friends, it is the norm there, and they all hate it too. I've seen Saudi guys freak out when it was brought up that of course someone in your large extended family is gay because a certain % of men are, everywhere. And I've had other guys tell me that they do cross dress and have gay men's gatherings (not linking those things, just naming two different things, ok!) but it's done in private gatherings and if your family has privilege, nothing will happen. Also, if you're Shia in KSA, you are a target. Or an atheist! There's a lot of good Saudi people, but the system there is a mess. Oddly enough the first "transwoman" I knew was from the Gulf (he did this in the USA) -- like an Arab Blaire White. Honest. Nice guy. Really nice, but.... not a woman. I used to be close friends with an Iranian family who were very free thinking (here in the US, but came from Tehran) and they told me in their multifamily complex at home, they had all agreed to live normally, no hijabs, no chador (the uniform women wear), just as close to the way the older people remembered before the Revolution. They didn't mention sex or drugs, but I'm sure they do -- just don't get caught or you need to be someone who's above the law.

There's a few documentaries on YT about young African women being held in KSA in essentially slavery. Horrible.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Cool man thanks for the knowledge. I genuinely enjoy reading what you right.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I really appreciate your sharing this info, too! "The Kingdom" is an abiding interest of mine, ever since the 1990s. (On 9/11, I was telling everyone, "Those terrorists are Saudi! Mark my words!" And 15 of the 19 were... plus the guy who didn't make it to the airport, and bin Laden himself, of course.) I always buy whatever halfway-decent English-language books on it that I can find (there aren't many).

I'm fascinated (and often horrified) by the culture, their ultra-ironic place as beyond-criticism U.S. "allies" (with friends like these, etc. etc.), and especially their status as THE wellspring of the most fundamentalist, militant sect of Islam: Wahhabism. (This is why I've personally dubbed KSA "The Jihadi Factory".) Which really, really matters, since they're using their oil wealth and religious clout as keepers of the "holy places" (Mecca & Medina) to stomp out every other Sunni sect; they themselves are the only Muslims, you see-- all the others are heretics/apostates. Especially Shia (as you noted)-- Wahhabis HATE them-- but literally anyone who's non-Wahabbi needs to convert... or else. And at the rate they're going, it's coming soon to a theater near you! They've already pretty much annihilated the Sufis (mystic sect which, till recently, was the dominant form of Islam in Asia): Wahhabism's original mission and purpose. Up next: the Shia.

If you're ever inclined to tell us more about KSA, please-- feel free! :)

[–]our_team_is_winning 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I reckon you know more than me! Thanks for your kind words. Be careful you don't get banned or deleted. I've noticed that any criticism of Islam has gotten me deleted several places (and guaranteed I have had more Muslim friends in real life than anyone who banned me online!) I worked with Saudis (in the USA) for about 15 years and had several close (mostly guy) friends. I learned little things, like if a guy is named Hassan, he is Shia. There's a lot of anti-Black feeling among them, even though many Saudis are Black. One particular Hassan told me his childhood best friend one day, when they were 17 or 18, boldly told him they couldn't be friends anymore because Hassan was Shia. Just out of nowhere. One time Hassan tried to enter a govt building and the guy at the door stopped him because he wasn't wearing the thobe. He said "are you Saudi? Why are you dressed like that?" (in bluejeans) and made him go home and change and come back. When they had the mass execution including Sheikh al-Nimr, and the USA said nothing -- that really upset me. Imagine if the USA were to cut anyone's head off as punishment for ANYTHING! But KSA does it routinely. I'm not Shia but I understand being a minority group at the mercy of a madmen ruling elite class. One Kuwaiti I'm close to, he told me his dad had gone to do the Hajj and was terribly mistreated for being Shia. Many years ago I was invited to Saudi Arabia by a friend, but at the time no single women under 45 were allowed in. They don't have tourist visas the way a normal country does. If that's changed meanwhile, I don't know. (I've aged past the restriction though -- uggh!) I had one Sunni guy, who was super nice, go off one day telling me the Shia were to blame for everything. Another (Sunni Saudi) told me he had a gf in KSA and they went out in public. I asked how. He said they just went in the "family entrance" at restaurants and nobody checked to see if they were married (they weren't!) Some of them take Islam more seriously than others. The ones who felt like talking about 9/11 with me all blamed the Israelis or the Israelis and the Americans. I told one guy "you know the CEO of Starbucks is Jewish and donates to the IDF" and he answered me, "We have Starbucks in KSA. What does that tell you?" And a few of them told me they believe the Saudi royal family are actually Jewish or have Jewish ties. I don't like that term "conspiracy minded," but I discovered a lot of them would fall into that category.

Here's an odd thing. I learned all young Arab guys are obsessed with a "conspiracy" (or is it true?) Youtube series called The Arrivals. If you check YT for "The Arrivals Arabic" you'll find it. It's many many MANY parts long and is New World Order-type stuff. I believe it's all images and reading in English, so you don't need Arabic.

For decades, Saudis in general were unbelievably lazy (they told me this) and they hired foreign Muslims to do all the dirty work. Same is true in Kuwait for sure and probably the whole Gulf. Then the price of oil crashed (their own doing, oddly) and suddenly Saudis had to take some of those jobs that guys from Bangladesh had been doing. Oh, and they all LOVED King Abdullah. LOVED him.

Sorry so off topic! Nothing to do with LGB Drop the T. I have known several gay Saudi guys in my life, one of whom kept telling me "Be a Muslim! Read the Quran!" -- imagine a gay Western man telling you to read Leviticus!

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And thank you for your kind words! :) (As well as advice on not getting banned/deleted; I've never de-lurked anywhere till this year, and am-- in case ya couldn't tell!-- still very much a newbie at the posting-game.) While yeah, I do have some info about KSA, it's all from reading; that yours is based on real-life interactions is in itself valuable. Provides an important dimension that books just cannot.

I understood that the discrimination against Shia is widespread and blatant; this really fleshes it out. No wonder that Sunni dude believed they were some cornucopia of badness-- it's what Saudi schools officially teach; he would have learned it as part of his lessons since tothood. Apparently, when on the hajj, Shia are sometimes prevented from entering Mecca at all by the mutawwa ("religious police"-- though "terrifying vigilante fanatics" sounds like a more accurate description). BTW, did you know that it's actually illegal for non-Muslims to go there? Though maybe we wouldn't wanna anyway, what with the Saudis having deliberately bulldozed pretty much every historically-significant building (like the one where Mohammad himself was born) and replaced 'em with soulless parking structures and strip malls! Why? Cuz nothing's worse than idolatry! So anything that might attract the faithfuls' veneration has gotta go. (This is how KSA's #2 family, the bin Ladens, made their fortune: ostensibly in construction... though maybe DEstruction is more like it!)

Yep, always thought that the place was near-impossible to get into for anyone who's not a business executive, federal government employee, "guest worker", or hajji... and that goes double for women. We've gotta have a sponsor, apparently-- cuz otherwise you're CLEARLY a prostitute, duh! (Travel books would suggest getting your hotel to act as sponsor, but who knows how well THAT ever worked, especially if the place you're staying in is less than five-star.) And there's never been any tourism-- except maybe right after 9/11 (for about 5 minutes), when it was announced as part of the short-lived see-we're-TOTALLY-not-evil-zealots-who'd-fly-planes-into-buildings PR-effort. Probably didn't inspire too many vacation plans. Also, if your passport has an Israeli stamp, KSA is a no-go (and vice-versa).

I'd heard that Middle Easterners are inveterate conspiracy theorists; sounds like the Saudis are no exception. Thanks for tipping me off about "The Arrivals"-- will have to check it (and its bonkers historical revisionism) out!

Yup: seems that most people in the Kingdom are "guest workers" rather than Saudi nationals. And plenty, I gather, aren't Muslim-- notably the typical housemaid, a Roman Catholic Filipina whose religion is of course illegal in KSA.

Your gay would-be Muslimizers are weirdly reminiscent of the Saudi cabbie from "Sandstorms" by Peter Theroux (the book that first got me interested in KSA), who alternated his demands that the author embrace Islam, and condemnations of western decadence, with frantically-horny requests for introductions to loose women and... boys. Guess pushing the Quran on people means you're exempt from actually following it yourself!

BTW, have you picked up any tidbits about the following?

  • the mutawwa
  • how do tribes work???
  • Saudi penchant for conducting unannounced executions in WTF places like parking lots
  • culture of the Najd (region where Riyad is, and Wahhabism/the al-Sauds is/are from), both in itself & vs KSA's other regions, esp. the Hejaz & Asir
  • connections (cultural etc.) between Asir & Yemen
  • Mohammad bin Salman: what do they think of him? And the claim that he's a "reformer" & this somehow offsets his authoritarian murderousness?
  • what Saudis think of the west, esp. the United States
  • any prospects for ever having a semi-secular democracy there? (I live in hope...)

And again: thanks so much for supplementing my book-learnin' with info gained IRL!

[–]our_team_is_winning 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You know far more than me. I just have personal stories. I no longer work with the Saudis, so my stories have been cut off. Once I drove two guys -- a guy and his uncle, and the uncle was two years older! The one guy was 23 and his mom had just had a new baby! I drove them somewhere and I said "Wait, is this your first time to be in a car with a woman driving?" It was. I had a guy tell me "a driver and a cook are just standard" -- we in the West think only the rich have those. In KSA and other Gulf countries it's the norm. About the Filipina maids -- they are Muslim. Part of the Philippines (the South?) is Muslim. One Kuwaiti told me their Filipina maid was screaming one night -- he ran in and found her giving birth! Her previous employer had gotten her pregnant and somehow she had hidden it. That upset me so much. I knew one KSA Shia whose parents were divorced. I didn't think that happened, but it did. Mostly I used to tell the guys I felt so lucky to get to know them because in their country I would never be allowed to speak freely with them. I'd often be alone with one somewhere and ask if it made them uncomfortable? No. They liked it. In KSA however, we would have been arrested and probably flogged. For a while I was friends with a woman who was married to a man rather high up in their govt and her car had diplomatic plates. (I told her I think this means you can actually kill someone in the US and you won't be charged) -- She dressed Western and told me she had a Saudi female friend here who was very jealous because her husband wouldn't let her take off the face covering. I knew one woman who arrived in the hijab and after a few months it was off and she was showing cleavage! (Her husband and baby were back home -- I think her father or brother had flown over with her and then left, as KSA women aren't allowed to leave the country without a male guardian). Did you follow the story of the girl who escaped via Thailand? Rahaf Mohammed al-Qunun. For a while I could not understand why women were named Mohammed -- your middle name is your father's name. I don't know what the mutawwa is; tribes are "qabeela" (no idea how to spell it! kabeela?) and they're huge, and when they have a wedding they invite hundreds of the extended clan and eat camels (!) MBS was new on the scene when my Saudi relations were ending, but I don't think they trust him. They have no movie theaters so they watch pirated things online. I'm sorry I have no info on your other questions. I know the jinn thing kept coming up. They all go out to the desert to camp and they think the jinn (I guess we say genies) play tricks on them out there. Everyone had a jinn story. Oh, and some of the women told me that when they'd go camping in the desert, their dads would let them try driving. And everyone knew a young man who'd been killed in a car crash -- they drive like maniacs, including tipping the car onto one side (who thought that was possible outside of some Hollywood action film?) -- they showed me video -- so they have a lot of speeding fatalities. Most everyone I met was from a family of six or more children, many as high as twelve. A lot of them were eagerly smoking pot here (before it was legal in this state). Alcohol and Western women were also their thing -- I used to ask them "You wouldn't do that at home, so why are you doing it here?" They told me "here is freedom country" (quote!) I knew some who moved in with non-Muslim girls, even though their families had picked out wives for them back home. That seemed really disrespectful to their future wives to me. The married ones I knew were mostly patriarchal as could be, really controlling her life and talking about her like she was his child. I knew maybe three married couples who were kind (at least around me) and seemed to respect each other. They all talk about kabsa constantly. I guess it's just rice with lamb or other dead animal. They seriously obsess over kabsa. One very insightful Shia guy told me he thinks they keep the Sunna-Shia trouble going so that the people fight each other and don't unite against the ruling family.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Oil. And, at this point, covering up our decades'-worth of complicity.

Also, for right-wing U.S. administrations, rich countries with similarly-backwards views (especially regarding women) are pretty thin on the ground.

[–][deleted] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Also, for right-wing U.S. administrations, rich countries with similarly-backwards views (especially regarding women) are pretty thin on the ground.

So this is why Obama sold the Saudi's so many guns and started proxy wars in Lybia, Yemen, Syria etc? Because the US is so backwater that we like how they treat their women? Give me a break.

It was a rhetorical question and it's always, always about money and power. Left wing administratorios are no different than right wing ones.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No; Obama's actions fall under 1 & 2, but not 3. For right-wing administrations, it's all of the above. They don't have many affluent, westernized allies in their god-said-so approach to "traditional family values".

And whether "we" like how Saudis treat their women is irrelevant; as far as such administrations are concerned, it's only whether their base (i.e., the "Christian right") likes it that matters. The rest of us can go pound sand. And, for those women-should-know-their-place types, what's NOT to like? Only that a different religion is in charge, one that doesn't allow theirs to poselytize... but weigh that against having a powerful reactionary ally in a world where most comparable nations find such views anathema. Maybe that doesn't seem worthwhile to you, but then it's not you that we're talking about here, is it?

And I don't think that it's always about money and power. Sometimes it's about beliefs that override both. For good, or-- in cases where pursuing these beliefs threatens to destroy everything, including all the value of money OR power-- ill.

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And I don't think that it's always about money and power.

It's always about money and power. You can't push your beliefs if you don't have the power and that always takes money.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Unless you don't need to push them. Sometimes the public already shares your beliefs.

In which case, money and power will probably follow, of course... but the appeal of belief came first.

[–]fuck_reddit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Because in the ME, it's either them or Iran. And the Saudis and Iran basically only agree on how to kill gays...

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ooooooor we could be allied with neither of those fuckers. However seeing how the geopolitics of that area is shaping up right now I don't see how we can extract ourselves from being allies with the Saudis unfortunately. Would be kinda funny if the "woke" culture seeped into Saudi Arabia though.

[–]fuck_reddit 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wish that could be the case, but since reality is not what I choose, I pick Saudi Arabia over Iran. Iran has a diverse economy and a good strategic geography. Saudi Arabia has few people, no geographic barriers, and nothing except oil. They are completely reliant on oil and will collapse when it runs out. I say, work with them today to keep Iran from being a threat, then let Saudi Arabia collapse on their own, then help them establish a modern government with some concept of rights.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This is an interesting take (and may well be the best strategy).

Even so, i see a plausible argument for the reverse:

  • While the Saudis will certainly run out of oil at some point (though not necessarily money: they've invested lots of those petrodollars elsewhere, after all), you know what they'll still have? Religious clout. As keepers of the holy places (Mecca & Medina), and the homeland of not only Islam's dominant sect (Wahhabism) but the religion as a whole, THAT aspect of their power/influence will continue unabated. Which, having already yielded Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Al-Shabaab (Somalia), and ISIS-- all Wahhabi-- is no small thing. I'd also assume that, if they can no longer exert power through oil and/or wealth, they'll only double down on doing it through religion. Seems like that would just make them more hostile towards the west in general and the U.S. in particular.
  • Iran actually has democracy in its modern history, unlike the Kingdom. Now, granted, it was the U.S. that put an end to that (when the CIA overthrew their elected government), but still: this might be something that we could build on-- that's already part of Iranian culture. Also, with Wahhabism rapidly taking over the Sunni world and being implacably hostile to the Shia, Iran really needs some allies (their sect makes up only 10-15% of all Muslims). And don't forget that Saudi Arabia's Eastern Province-- i.e., where all the oil is-- just happens to be majority-Shia. (Yeah, they're Arabs, not Persians, but being a minority that's so under-the-gun, Shia tend to stick together.)

Thoughts?

[–]fuck_reddit 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are right that they have a ton of money, but they are bleeding it like crazy. If I remember correctly from an essay I wrote, they had roughly $754 B saved up in 2018, but the emergence of US fracking caused oil prices to go down. This meant that the Saudi's had to start spending this money to stay afloat and within one year, they had spent nearly $100 B of that saved money. I haven't looked at the numbers over the past year, but crude oil going negative couldn't have been good for them. They are diversifying, but way too slowly for the rate of their decline. The religion aspect is a wild card. I can't say either way what will happen. I think the only consolation is that their religious clout will be checked in all scenarios by the rampant sectarian conflicts of the Middle East. I definitely agree with encouraging republican government in Iran. The (apparent) lack of US support during the recent protests was a major sore point for me, but I don't quite know how we could intervene without creating an even worse scenario that may not be resolved anytime soon. My major concern is that a lot of the republicans in Iran fled to the US and elsewhere after the revolution and the democratic spirit may not be as strong in the current culture. I don't have any clear evidence for this either way though, just an anxiety of mine. I don't know about Shias sticking together though. Iraq and Iran are not very friendly. Very good points! Very thought provoking.

[–]our_team_is_winning 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Iran isn't on the list?

[–]8bitgay 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

So I don't think (unsurpisingly) Wikipedia is an honest source.

I'm not a heavy critic of Wikipedia, but some articles can be really bad, especially after edits. One that comes to my mind is the page about prevalence of circumcision.

If you see older version of the map, it used to have many varying degrees, clearly showing that most countries have a very low prevalence of circumcision. It also signified countries with a higher prevalence with darker tones of red opposing green tones.

The current map though has only 3 tones, with the middle tone signifying a huge range (from 20 to 80%). In this map Canada and USA are the same color, even though there's a ~30% difference among them. The map also goes from yellow to red, which portrays countries with a high prevalence in a more neutral way.