DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]bastetkat 53 insightful - 2 fun53 insightful - 1 fun54 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Can you give me examples of radfems denying science?

[–]GConly 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (5 children)

Can you give me examples of radfems denying science?

I can.

So the overwhelming majority of researchers looking at sexual differentiation in the human brain will tell you that there is a difference, and you can affect adult behaviour and sexual orientation with prenatal hormones.

The radfems post the same paper by Daphne Joel on a loop (she claims there are virtually no differences) even though multiple neuroscientists have written strong critiques of it, pointing out that you can spot the sex of someone from a brain scan about 95% of the time. Where you can't, it's almost always because the person is gay.

So.. this same crappy and debunked paper is their some source of 'no such thing as brain sex', it gets endlessly recycled and they ignore the thousands, and I'm not exaggerating, of papers and neuroscientists that have the opposite opinion. We've known since the fifties that prenatal testosterone affects adult aggression and play behaviour in mammals. We even know that giving it to female embryos at different times can give you a lesbian or tomboy monkey.

If you don't tow the line on this, sooner or later they will block you.

The reason they stick to it is that they are heavily invested in the Marxist viewpoint that all inequality is caused by environment and discrimination. They are heavily anti capitalist and pro socialist.

If they accept that average man and woman have different levels of aggression, interest in STEM, etc, they lose their basis to claim that that income and outcome differences are caused by oppression. Bang goes their 'we are oppressed' leverage. They'd lose the victim card.

It makes them look like a complete bunch of muppets to anyone who studies the subject.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

As the OP, yes this is what I was getting at.

Radfems are wrong that there is absolutely no difference. But you are also taking it too far in a way that also shows a lack of understanding. Both the idea that there are clear male and female brains and the idea that they are both totally moldeable with no noticeable differences are false. It’s in between: there are some trends that are common to both and upbringing is a factor. Things like hormones are also influential. Discrimination does exist and changes things as well - they aren’t just making up the idea that women have been treated like property throughout most of history, and that many sexist ideas are alive today. The brain is plastic but it isn’t play-doh, essentially. The variation is large and it is not a defining sex characteristic.

You are exaggerating what those researchers are saying, if unintentionally.

Frankly as someone who grew up surrounded by healthcare, I’m really sick of watching science be weaponized by both sides. Not limited to the trans debate

[–]BiHorror 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I mean if there is a sexed brain, then people shouldn't be surprised when the far right starts bringing up IQs and race related stuff due to the isolation and genetic/phenotypes of some cultures. Bring back partially race science, and start testing between races.

(And before anyone comes at me, I'm not white, and this is also one of the things people who don't believe there is a difference between the brains 100% also spew).

[–]Astrid2448[S] 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I’m also not white before someone comes at me as well lol. Though I get sick of having to use this to be able to talk.

Obviously those are the wrong things to do. It’s horseshoe theory in action tbh. That’s a big problem for me when it comes to weaponizing science in these political debates, because no one is stating “sexed brains” plainly, they usually follow it with a worldview that promotes sexism based on misinterpretations or exaggerations of the data to suit their narrative. Just as it would be with race.

The truth is that there are differences. From a purely scientific standpoint, I feel comfortable saying that odds are there are differences in averages between pipulations (same as there are with things like height based on race) because I can separate average data from individual reality. However, the issue like you said is that many people can’t. And I can understand why, because if you’re not regularly in these circles, when you hear data about this you’re going to jump to conclusions or try to relate it to your own life. In that way it feeds bigotry, as frankly has already been seen in this thread with the implication that women aren’t in certain fields, etc. because their brain limits them from it. It Is hard for people to be objective given data without the background to interpret it properly.

Hell, even many people who should know better are plagued by this. In particular, for quite a while the hard sciences have been harassed by psychology and sociology researchers who publish papers reinterpreting biology in whatever image they’d like. Then the woke people cite those articles as evidence when I’d almost call them opinion pieces.

Hence why I would like to see people stop pulling the “BUT SCIENCE AGREES WITH ME!” to try to win political debates in these areas.

[–]reluctant_commenter 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Both the idea that there are clear male and female brains and the idea that they are both totally moldeable with no noticeable differences are false. It’s in between

Yes, but-- isn't this obvious? I guess maybe it is worth observing anyway. Maybe I am being too blasé and some people are making this mistake. But these are group averages when we talk about a "male brain" or "female brain", or whatever. Consistent patterns of average differences, not set-in-stone difference.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 1 insightful - 3 fun1 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

You would think so but this isn’t my experience with radfems or with TRAs. But again, that’s because they’re the far left. I’m sure a normal liberal, centrist or democrat would agree.