DiscussionBeing associated with radical feminism is dragging this movement down.

submitted by Astrid2448 from self.LGBDropTheT

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[–]Gearbeta 26 insightful - 2 fun26 insightful - 1 fun27 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

The problem is not with radfems associating themselves with us it's with libfems associating us with radfems. There's an entire Tumblr about this, about how the term terf has been used to harass lesbians. Or like how r/detrans is considered by many TRAs to be a "terf sub" despite them making a great effort to call out radfems trying to derail conversations.

And to be honest we're not caught in a war between two feminism idealogies. We are being almost exclusively attacked by libfems and TRA idealogy. It is they who believe we don't have the right to sexual boundaries and should put ourselves through self conversion therapy so we can fuck them. Radfems don't do this. It is libfems and TRAs who trans young GNC kids not radfems.

And libfems and TRAs started the fight with radfems. Most radfems would have been okay with trans people but then they started invading rape shelters, invading women's sports, changing the language to erase women, transing kids sometimes against the will of the parents, transing kids by enabling homophobic parents (see that lady that beat the shit out of her gay son and then transed him to be a girl). Radfems are defending the hardwon rights of women. And quite frankly I'd say that the current incarnation of radical feminism is a creation of libfems. It's women pushing back against them.

Now I'm not going to say radfems are all great, they have a real problem with people pretending to be lesbians when they're not just because they're mad at men, or saying absolutely terrible shit about men (I saw on Tumblr a radfems proudly proclaiming she would abort any male fetus... ) But so far they have been one of the only groups to consistently fight against TRA nonsense.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 6 insightful - 6 fun6 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 6 fun -  (3 children)

We are associated with radfems though. It isn’t some misconception, it’s true. Any anti-TQ group you make will be immediately filled with radfems, like you said they consistently fight against it. And radfems did use detrans to further their beliefs. They often stalk other subreddits, both when they agree with them and when they don’t. And the TRAs do the same thing.

I can understand why you feel that we are not being attacked by radfems as they are definitely more open to listening to LGB people in some contexts. However, I stand by saying their willingness to hear you talk is conditional. They listen because you agree with them on trans issues. If you say anything that goes against their ideology, they are not going to listen to you either. And like TRAs, they don’t treat people they disagree with well, because they see themselves as morally superior. Also like TRAs, this applies if you agree with 90% of what they are saying but don’t agree on the 10%, and they seek to control the narrative. On reddit, they were happy to mass downvote gay people on LGBdroptheT if it meant that the radfems could boost themselves to the top of the page. They are also generally less kind to gay men than they are to lesbians.

I agree that the extremism seen in radical feminism is partially due to liberal feminists attacking women’s rights. However, it isn’t the whole story. Most radfems were already hardcore liberal feminists before becoming upset with them over trans rights issues. Had trans rights activists been less extreme, they would just be part of far left feminism as another loud SJW on Twitter. That’s what I’m pointing out.

I appreciate your thoughts and think you stated them well, btw.

[–]Gearbeta 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think what we call "radical feminism" now has become more of an anti-TRA/libfem movement and less of what radical feminism used to be. I wouldn't say either is more extreme (old school radfem beliefs include IIRC things like heterosexual intercourse is inherently non-consensual). And you're certainly right that if TRAs were less extreme they would just be run of the mill libfems. But can we really say we, LGB people are any different? I mean, many gay men were completely silent on the issues happening regarding TRAs sexually harassing lesbians until transmen started doing it to them. And many lesbians didn't believe other lesbians about TRAs canceling them for not being into dick until it happens to them or they see it live in action. If TRAs were less extreme, we might not even have the droptheT movement at all. But then, if TRAs were less extreme, there might not have been a need for a droptheT movement or for radical feminism to resurge. Either way, I think that LGBdroptheT should distinguish itself from radfems so even if TRAs adamantly refuse to see the differences, we will know there is a difference and can establish boundaries between the two groups for better interactions.

[–]Astrid2448[S] 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but I do think there’s a big difference between what radfems were doing and what most gay people were doing. The vast majority of gay people are not obnoxious twitter activists. Many of us didn’t believe it because we weren’t involved in the community outside of the bare minimum and dating. Lesbians especially tend to partner off and vanish. Gay men come for the parties. Half the reason we were taken over so easily is because after gay marriage was legalized, most gay people felt safer and went on with their lives.

Radfems on the other hand, have been the twitter activists from the start. They act the same because again this is a war within the woke left which has essentially split. A few years ago radfems and TRAs would’ve been in the same circles. It’s a big part of why they hate each other so much - they feel betrayed by each other and feel like they need to stop the other group from lobbying for the changes they want. And they both think they’re doing it for the good of humanity.

[–]lairacunda 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"A few years ago radfems and TRAs would’ve been in the same circles. It’s a big part of why they hate each other so much - they feel betrayed by each other and feel like they need to stop the other group from lobbying for the changes they want. And they both think they’re doing it for the good of humanity."

Radical Feminism became suspicious of trans very early on, though when there were a lot fewer trans and TRAs, what exactly they were in terms of a social-engineering agenda wasn't clear. They also tended to stay in their lane and were mostly actual disphorics as opposed to AGPs. That changed after the 90s but it changed gradually. The erosion of women's rights has also been gradual. I would agree that radfem is leftist but it's also outside of the left/right framework. The class analysis of radical feminism may have originated with Marxism but the classes it identifies and the path towards women's liberation are way beyond any framework the left provides. Unlike traditional political tendencies, radical feminists recognize patriarchal women as being in the same class as all women.