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[–][deleted] [score hidden] stickied comment (1 child)

If anyone is having trouble accessing the article, OP has posted the text here: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/62eg/trans_activists_in_academia_study_with_multiple/nmkl

(sorry peeps, Reddit never gave us mods the ability to sticky other user comments, so SaidIt hasn't either)

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 32 insightful - 2 fun32 insightful - 1 fun33 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

Under-18 transgender surgery caution urged after false claims scandal

Australia’s psychiatrists have been urged to be very cautious about giving official backing to gender clinic treatments for under-18s after an international scandal over false claims of mental health benefits for transgender surgery.

The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists should be “extremely careful” before endorsing so-called “gender affirming” hormonal treatment and surgery for minors, according to Philip Morris, president of the National Association of Practising Psychiatrists whose members look after patients in the private and public sector.

The country’s biggest gender clinic at the Royal Children’s Hospital in Melbourne has asked for more public money to start double mastectomies on girls under 17 who identify as male, with director Michelle Telfer claiming in July 2019 that “chest reconstructive surgery” improves mental health.

This month, the prestigious Journal of American Psychiatry had to publish an extraordinary correction to an October 2019 US-Swedish paper hailed as a global breakthrough in a field where even gender affirming clinicians admit the evidence is short-term and low-quality.

The peer-reviewed paper was the first to use official Swedish data, which is unusually comprehensive, to claim that surgery such as mastectomy or genital reconstruction reduced the need for mental health treatment by 8 per cent a year over the ensuing decade.

“No longer can we say that we lack high-quality evidence of the benefits of providing gender-affirming surgeries to transgender individuals who seek them,” said study co-author John Pachankis, who directs the LGBTQ Mental Health Initiative at Yale University.

Newsweek magazine highlighted the research finding and quoted unnamed “scientists who say such (surgical) interventions must be as easy as possible to access”.

On August 1, the American journal published a correction, an editorial and letters from a dozen psychiatrists, clinicians and researchers in four countries identifying multiple flaws in the 2019 paper, with the conclusion that the data showed no improvement in mental health after surgery or hormonal treatment.

The correction said the authors agreed “with many of the points raised” after the letters triggered statistical reviews. They reanalysed the data, and found “no advantage” for mental health after surgery.

The authors’ original study had detected no benefit after hormone drugs but media coverage focused on the surgery success story.

“(The correction) has great international significance,” said Paul McHugh, one of America’s most distinguished practitioners, former chief psychiatrist at Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore and co-author of one of the letters run by the journal.

He said the correction would make gender affirming advocates “a lot more cautious” when making scientific claims because “they’ll know people are watching”.

“Peer review is not going to God, it’s going to the common thought of the day, which in psychiatry is usually good, but every 10-15 years it gets lost in some misadventure,” Professor McHugh told The Australian.

He predicted the excesses of gender affirming treatment — like the 1990s “enthusiasm” over repressed memory and multiple personality — would be reined in by the courts, not by the psychiatric profession.

Swedish neuropsychiatrist Christopher Gillberg, one of the world’s top autism researchers, put his name to one of the letters critical of the 2019 paper, pointing out its positive claims ignored any post-surgery suicides.

Four of the letter-writers serve as clinical and academic advisers to the new watchdog group the Society for Evidence Based Gender Medicine.

The 2019 US-Swedish paper has been hailed by one of Australia’s biggest youth news sites, pedestrian.tv, in an article promoting a change.org petition by a teenage activist, Tennille Fleming, lobbying federal Health Minister Greg Hunt for trans surgery to be fully covered by Medicare. The petition has more than 25,000 signatures.

Media outlets which reported the 2019 study’s result have yet to cover the journal’s correction.

RCH researcher Ken Pang in 2018 documented spikes in new referrals at the gender clinic in the month following three media items by the ABC and The Age newspaper between 2014 and 2016. This coverage showcased the clinic and told positive stories of young people on puberty blocker drugs and cross-sex hormones.

Treatment guidelines from Dr Telfer’s RCH clinic, promoted as “Australian standards”, make a case for trans mastectomies for girls as young as 16 with “gender dysphoria” (distress at feeling “born in the wrong body”).

In September, the RANZCP quietly dropped its endorsement of these guidelines from its LGBTIQ+ mental health policy statement, following concerns reported by The Australian.

The college set up a group to review the evidence for the RCH guidelines and gender dysphoria treatment.

Asked if its unnamed experts would take into account the US journal’s correction, a spokeswoman for the college said they would look at the relevant “literature and evidence-based practice”.

A previously unreported submission shows the RANZCP, the Royal Australasian College of Physicians and a state-funded trans activist group the Gender Centre collaborated in 2016 to ask the NSW government for $8m over four years to set up an RCH-style gender affirming network of clinics with The Children’s Hospital at Westmead in Sydney as the centre. The proposal cited “close consultation” with Dr Telfer.

In 2018-19, the government provided $160,000 towards the project.

Under-18 trans medical treatment in NSW is rising but remains on a small scale compared with Victoria, Queensland and Western Australia.

On Tuesday, responding to questions about the 2016 proposal, NSW Health Minister Brad Hazzard revealed for the first time that late last year he had asked his department for a review of treatment for youth gender dysphoria.

This review was “well underway and will inform the improvements to the provision of health services for trans, gender diverse and non-binary children and young people,” a spokeswoman for NSW Health said.

The Australian sought comment from Dr Pachankis, his Swedish co-author Richard Branstrom, and RCH.

[–]slushpilot 32 insightful - 5 fun32 insightful - 4 fun33 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

“chest reconstructive surgery”

Good god that is Orwellian.

[–]worried19 20 insightful - 2 fun20 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Even more Orwellian that they're doing it to kids as young as 13 in the USA.

[–]unUSEFULidiot 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Mengelelian

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

YEP.

[–]unUSEFULidiot 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Mengelelian

[–]NiceDickBro 26 insightful - 7 fun26 insightful - 6 fun27 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Hol up... giving developing confused children hormones and invasive surgeries that will change their entire body for the rest of their life isn’t a good idea?

[–]fr_bandersnatchghey... 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (19 children)

He predicted the excesses of gender affirming treatment — like the 1990s “enthusiasm” over repressed memory and multiple personality — would be reined in by the courts, not by the psychiatric profession.

So I was very young in the 90's. Could someone clue me in on what went down with repressed memory & multiple personality diagnoses? I'm assuming these were... over-diagnosed fads? Was there blow-back over them at some point? Someone finally observed that the emperor had no clothes? Want's the history?

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 22 insightful - 4 fun22 insightful - 3 fun23 insightful - 4 fun -  (4 children)

I had a huuuuuge wall-of-text comment on exactly this topic back in the old sub. Sucks that it's gone now because it answered all of your questions (and many more questions you didn't even know you had.)

I'm going to do a really sucky summary of what I wrote last time because I simply don't have the energy for a full-blown verbal-diarrhea session right now.

The multiple personality disorder thing goes waaaay back to the movie The Three Faces of Eve (1957) about a woman who has multiple personality disorder, based on a true story. There was also a book, and copycat stories/movie, which caused a public interest in the disorder.

The person known as Sybil, and her doctor Cornelia Wilbur were apparently also inspired by this story. The movie Sybil came out in 1976, also books, and renewed public interest in the disorder.

What these two movies/books/stories did was to embed multiple personality disorder into the psyche of the American public, like a meme. Everyone was aware that such a condition existed, and that it happened to some people, sometimes, rarely. (The same can be said about amnesia, for example.)

What happened in the 80's /90's? Daytime talk shows. Oprah, Geraldo, Donahue, Sally Jessie Raphael. This was the third wave of multiple personality disorder. Attention whores who'd grown up with Eve and Sybil would go on these shows and brag about sometimes HUNDREDS of personalities. There was one lady who had all sorts of people of different ages and races and everything living inside of her and she was jumping from personality to personality on camera, being a man, being a woman, being a little girl, different accents and everything. It sort of became a pissing contest for these talk show guests to out-do each other. And there was a titillation factor of childhood sexual abuse.

What went hand-in-hand with multiple personality disorder was the repressed memories. (When one of your other personalities takes over, you sometimes don't remember what happened to you because "you" were not conscious. And of course, that's where most of the childhood abuse memories hid, and it was always an exciting revelation to pull those memories out and have a satisfying conclusion of "ohhhhhhhhhhh.... so that's why I have 8 billion personalities living in my head, this explains it all!")

Repressed memories became a whole new industry for quacks and self-help gurus. Books were written about it, daytime talkshows devoted episodes to it, Roseanne Barr came out as a victim and really took the movement over the top. As /u/slushpilot said, most of us dismissed this as "those people are crazy" but there were way too many people taking this shit seriously. Many years later Roseanne has since taken back what she's said and has accused her psychiatrist of taking advantage of her, so there's that.

That's basically the answer to your question, so you can stop reading if you want but I just want to wrap up what my original point had been in that old comment.

I had called the 90's era "multiple personality disorder 3.0" Eve Being 1.0 and Sybil being 2.0. 4.0 came with the internet. In the late 90's early 2000's MPD was re-named Dissociative Identity Disorder, but on the internet it had a different name: Headmates, fictives, fictionkin, tulpas. These were anime fans who thought they had anime characters living in their heads. They INSISTED that these were people from an alternate plane of existence that just so happened to be living in their heads, despite being the intellectual property of strangers in Japan, also somehow only able to speak English and not Japanese. You couldn't argue with these people. Along with these people there were the furries and otherkin and the "fuck you, I'm a dragon!" people.

MPD 5.0 = right now. The trans-trenders. The stupid-pronoun collectors. The "I'm a gender that cannot be explained by human words" people. It's no longer about multiple personalities, but the essence is still the same - escapist fantasy that depends on other people believing your bullshit and giving you attention.

Anyway, my old write-up was so much better. This sucks. Maybe I'll re-write it someday and make a post out of it.

[–]KingCandyCane 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Looking at the trans-trend as MPD 5.0 is an eye-opening perspective that I never considered. I look forward to your re-write, if you get to it.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This writeup is still fantastic!! Thank you so much for sharing, that context really helps.

There was one lady who had all sorts of people of different ages and races and everything living inside of her and she was jumping from personality to personality on camera, being a man, being a woman, being a little girl, different accents and everything.

^ Okay, this I find fascinating, that people were claiming to be like this. Because research from the past couple decades shows that like 95%+ of DID patients do not have any overt symptoms. Indeed, if people developed DID in order to adapt by hiding their trauma.. it would be a very useless coping mechanism if the symptoms were so obvious. (If you want any more sources, since you seem super interested in this topic, lmk and I'll dig them out of my email.)

And there was a titillation factor of childhood sexual abuse.

That's sickening.

but on the internet it had a different name: Headmates, fictives, fictionkin, tulpas. These were anime fans who thought they had anime characters living in their heads.

These people are actually still around on Tumblr!! I stumbled across it somehow and was like, WTF.

MPD 5.0 = right now. The trans-trenders. The stupid-pronoun collectors. The "I'm a gender that cannot be explained by human words" people. It's no longer about multiple personalities, but the essence is still the same - escapist fantasy that depends on other people believing your bullshit and giving you attention.

Okay, I 1000% agree with this observation. Except, I actually think there is an even more intriguing link, between MPD and nonbinary trans:

In "nonbinary" trans, there is the idea of "genderfluid". That is, your gender constantly changing. Why might your gender constantly change, you ask? Well... it might "change" if you have "multiple personalities" that are all different genders! If you go on r/DID and especially r/OSDD, you'll see this in action. Why are so many people who claim to have DID-- vast majority, self-diagnosed of course-- also trans?? Very curious.

[–]TovasshiDefinitely a house plant 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

It's all different flavors of Histrionic Personality Disorder.

[–]slushpilot 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is awesome. Insightful +100 if I could.

I do remember this stuff being a ridiculous sitcom & soap opera trope... So-and-so got amnesia and can't remember who she's in love with! Then they wake up and it was all a dream.

I guess just like gratuitous trans characters are popping up in media now too. It's fascinating for some people I guess.

[–]unUSEFULidiot 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Pretty sure the "satanic panic" started the trend. It was a moral panic, similar to the moral panic around childhood kidnappings in the 80's and the panic around shark attacks in the summer of 2001 I believe.

I recommend searching up Jonathan Haidt on YouTube. The guy has a couple of lectures which give a good overview of the phenomenon.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

edit2: I was vastly uninformed on this topic, sorry. This is probably a better article. https://dynamic.uoregon.edu/jjf/aaas04/freydpr/index.html

TLDR: People forgetting their childhood trauma for years is a real thing. Therapists mistakenly using hypnosis to have people "recover" memories they don't have, happened and was harmful but is STILL a debate within academia.

edit: I am reading this article on it, you might find it interesting as well.

Holy hell, this is disturbing.

https://psmag.com/.amp/social-justice/dangerous-idea-mental-health-93325

[original answer]

Well, I don't know what he means about "multiple personality"-- maybe Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), which used to be referred to as Multiple Personality Disorder (DID), might be what he is referring to. There are a few psychologists who don't believe it exists, but I am not sure whether he is one of them.

But, about "repressed memories"-- there was supposedly a movement of therapists who tried to pressure their clients into believing that they had been sexually abused as children and had "repressed" their memories of it-- basically gaslighting people into believing they were sexually abused. Saying stuff like "All your problems are due to sexual abuse." tried to use techniques that were NOT scientifically proven to help clients "recover" memories. I do not know how common this was. I KNOW that at least one bad outcome of this was that some therapists were just like, "Anyone who comes out and says they were sexually abused, is making it up". But, tbh I have not done tons of reading on it and have been meaning to. If anyone else knows more I'd be curious to hear.

[–]artetolife 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I don't believe therapists were deliberately gaslighting their patients, they thought repressed memories were a real thing that could be uncovered with hypnosis and other techiques that are now debunked, because in reality people will dream up all kinds of bizarre shit under those conditions.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Ah okay, interesting. I think there are actually some therapists out there still using this stuff, though...

edit: using techniques that don't work, to be clear.

[–]artetolife 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Maybe, but back then there was also a moral panic over 'satanic ritual abuse' that fuelled that whole DID phenomenon and that doesn't exist anymore.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Oh god... I read "We Believe The Children" it has to be the best book on satanic panic. My favorite part was when the defense lawyers got the children to admit that actor Chuck Norris, the city attorney of LA, and the presiding judge also molested them.

https://www.amazon.com/We-Believe-Children-Moral-Panic/dp/1610392876

I highly recommend it!

EDIT - I was scrolling through my copy of the book just to verify some facts, and I'd forgotten how much content there is in here about the repressed memories fad of the 80's. This is a must-read for everybody. You will not believe the level of stupidity of these adults and the horrors these poor children ended up going through.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Well, DID still exists-- although in very small numbers. Several general-population surveys have put it at less than half a percent of the population.

Satanic ritual abuse though, yeah. That moral panic does not exist anymore.

[–]PassionateIntensity 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

There isn't very good evidence DID really exists. There are psychologists who believe it does and specialize in it, and there are psychologists who don't.

https://www.garygreenbergonline.com/w/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Psychiatric_Times_-_When_Psychiatry_Battled_the_Devil_-_2013-12-06.pdf

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/saving-normal/201401/multiple-personality-mental-disorder-myth-or-metaphor

The field doesn't seem to have changed much. Too many political or sensationalized fad diagnoses. It pains me to say that because so many people are legitimately mentally ill and need help, but get enabled or harmed more by psychiatry. Some of the same doctors like Diane Ehrensaft who never suffered any consequences for pushing Satan Panic are now transing toddlers.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There isn't very good evidence DID really exists. There are psychologists who believe it does and specialize in it, and there are psychologists who don't.

No, evidence indicates otherwise. DID exists. The first article you linked did not even claim that DID does not exist, it was talking about the Satanic ritual abuse movement and how Multiple Personality Disorder was overdiagnosed-- which indeed it was. Both the articles you linked are talking about the fad of DID-- the social contagion phenomenon, similar to that of the transgender one we're seeing now.

Evidence supporting the existence of DID:

  • DID patients can be reliably and validly diagnosed with structured and semistructured interviews, including the Structured Clinical Interview for Dissociative Disorders–Revised (SCID-D-R)54 and Dissociative Disorders Interview Schedule (DDIS)55,56 (reviewed in Dorahy et al. [2014]).14 DID can also be diagnosed in clinical settings, where structured interviews may not be available or practical to use.57

  • DID patients are consistently identified in outpatient, inpatient, and community samples around the world. 12,37–45

  • DID patients can be differentiated from other psychiatric patients, healthy controls, and DID simulators in neurophysiological and psychological research.58–63

  • DID patients usually benefit from psychotherapy that addresses trauma and dissociation in accordance with expert consensus guidelines.64–66

source: https://journals.lww.com/hrpjournal/fulltext/2016/07000/separating_fact_from_fiction__an_empirical.2.aspx

DID is a rare disorder that arises only in individuals who have undergone severe and repeated trauma in early childhood. This is yet another parallel between DID and transgenderism: Pretenders may come and go, but just because pretenders may latch on to an easily-abused concept, does not necessarily mean that the concept itself is false. This is the same with transgenderism, too: Saying that DID isn't real because there was a fad where people faked having DID, is parallel to saying transsexualism isn't real because a bunch of people are faking being trans. (Of course, some people do think transsexualism is fake, but that's another discussion.)

Now-- whether or not the DID diagnosis would actually be better described as a subtype of another disorder, such as schizophrenia or BPD, has been up for debate in the field for a while. This paper compares DID patients to BPD patients, for example, and they have a lot of overlap, although a few interesting differences as well. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4579511/

I know it might seem like splitting hairs to debate this but this does actually exist and affects a tiny segment of the population. Like I said, there's been a handful of research articles that have surveyed the general population for DID, and found 0.5% on average or so. (Edit: I have links to these research papers as well, if you're curious, they're somewhere in my email.)

Some of the same doctors like Diane Ehrensaft who never suffered any consequences for pushing Satan Panic are now transing toddlers.

That is just. So beyond fucked up. Wow.

edit: spelling, added a couple words to clarify

edit2: Also, the second article did not provide evidence suggesting that DID does not exist, and is missing some factual information-- for example, MPD was reframed and altered but still continued as DID, and the article confusingly suggests that it "disappeared, to one day rise again". It did not disappear, but it started getting diagnosed WAY less.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The parts you crossed out are actually true, except that I don't believe it was a malicious case of therapists knowing this person hasn't been abused but is trying to convince the person anyway, it was more like they already believed the person was abused, so they were just trying to help the person realize it (which is of course bullshit because you are a therapist not a psychic, you can't just 'have a feeling' that someone was abused and then roll with it.)

Edit - and yeah thanks to this, for a while no one wanted to believe anyone with repressed abuse memories, there was a sense of 'they're all making it up,' and 'how could you not remember that?' It was a really sucky time for people who actually had repressed memories.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

except that I don't believe it was a malicious case

Yeah, that's why I edited it out, because that seems to be incorrect.

(which is of course bullshit because you are a therapist not a psychic, you can't just 'have a feeling' that someone was abused and then roll with it.)

Completely agree. There has been a lot of research demonstrating that therapists often conflate their # of years of experience, with their judgment capability. They are just as prone to mistaken heuristics and human biases as anyone.

yeah thanks to this, for a while no one wanted to believe anyone with repressed abuse memories, there was a sense of 'they're all making it up,' and 'how could you not remember that?' It was a really sucky time for people who actually had repressed memories.

Yeah that upsets me.

[–]slushpilot 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't remember it being a widespread thing that was taken nearly as seriously as the trans phenomenon today. In any case, it was plainly and easily dismissed by the general population as "those people are crazy" so I think they didn't really persist with it. Now you can't say that.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Wasn't that "satanic cult" craze? When with hypnosis therapists found "repressed memories" in thousands of people? And most were "used in satanic rituals when they were kids", because it was big on TV, so people were going to check if they not forgot something like that, and ofc they were finding that they had those!

[–]florasisHOMOSEXUAL FEMALE/Pussy is my God and I'm monotheist 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Vast majority of trans seem not to have any interest in surgery, anyway. Considering new trans are het men, who got no real dysphoria about their dicks.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Ok this should work, let me know if the link is broken. Not sure why it didn't post right before.

[–]slushpilot 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I can't open it either. The "www.theaustralian.com.au" link keeps redirecting to a "tags.news.com.au" site which is unreachable for me.

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Just posted the text in a comment! Sorry you can't access it.

[–]Q-Continuum-kin 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This basically reaffirms the original long term study from Sweden.

[–]divingrightintowork 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

[–]reluctant_commenter[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Looks like that is the same one, yes.