Do you think that "nonbinary" is valid?

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[–]CJLez 68 insightful - 6 fun68 insightful - 5 fun69 insightful - 6 fun -  (2 children)

In my ideal world I'd have gender abolished. Let people wear/act/dress however they like (as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else) and segregate everything (sports/prisons/refuges/changing rooms) along sex lines with third unisex spaces available that people can use if they don't feel safe or comfortable using male or female ones.

Gender harms everybody - from women who are taught to be quiet and demure and ladylike to men who are taught that they should never show (or even feel) any kind of emotion and be a 'real man' and I think it's only going to get worse. Here in the UK there was a primary school document designed to teach very young children about gender - it was a scale - with a barbie at one end to represent woman, an action man at the other end to represent men and everything inbetween was non-binary. We're teaching the next generation that unless they're a literal parody that they are under the 'trans umbrella.'

My other big problem with non-binary is that there are literally 0 people in the world who have 100% adhered to sexist sterotypes for every single moment of their entire lives. The definition of non-binary includes the entire human race so the word is meaningless. Rather than take down gender from the inside and fight for a future where men can be as 'feminine' as they want and women can be as 'masculine' as they want they're sauntering away to form a high-school-esque clique and laugh at the unenlightened normies who, they assume, don't understand how bullshit gender norms are.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This this this. Very well put :)

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Jesus christ, did they seriously use barbie and action man?

There are so many things wrong with that and so much harm that could do impressionable kids, and it's not just in relation to gender. Unrealistic expectations is the obvious one that jumps to mind.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman 31 insightful - 1 fun31 insightful - 0 fun32 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Other people have made great arguments I agree with already, so I'll just say that I don't believe in nonbinary at all.

As for why people flock to validate these individuals on their identities, I think most people are driven by their desire to be kind and not make others feel uncomfortable. Even when they don't really understand what exactly it is they're supporting. Kindness is admirable, but can be misguided. I'm not sure these people who are quick to support without questioning are the kind that tend to scrutinise their own thoughts and principles overmuch. Or maybe they just don't really care about these things.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 25 insightful - 1 fun25 insightful - 0 fun26 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I do understand where you're coming from, but when someone blindly accepts everything without being at least a little bit critical about it, I don't call it kindness. I call it stupidity.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I mean, I don't disagree. I'm just one of those people with an impulse to be kind. But not unquestioningly so. :D

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, that's cute :) .

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

They are driven by mental short-cuts. “The people I usually agree with on X things believe this and say that, so that is the ‘right’ position for me to have that fits in with my values. I can trust what these people are saying and I can’t trust what those other people are saying because even when it sounds like they make sense, it’s really a dog whistle and they have nefarious intent. And who does it hurt to be more inclusive?”

And the underlying values are inclusivity as its own end goal and being open-minded about things that challenge established norms. Because how can you be too inclusive? Who does it hurt? I see this all the time but they don’t actually want to know the answer. It’s rhetorical. They don’t believe you when you walk them through the logical conclusion even though the answer is women, gays and bisexuals, trans people with actual gender dysphoria, and everyone really because gender is destructive even as to men.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, I've seen this a lot, too. Identity politics also encourage people to accept the "most oppressed" people as the ones who know the truth, so when a LGBT POC with disabilities says nonbinaries are valid, you can't argue unless you want to be painted a racist transphobe.

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yep I think the discussion “Is Intersectionality a Religion?” that is available on YouTube made this clear. I originally learned about intersectionality in an academic context in law school in which it made perfect sense. It was exactly the context where the concept is relevant. But it has been bastardized and weaponized and the result is that it has incentivized people to take on ridiculous identities to control public discourse let alone to have a seat at the table. And it is causing the left (of which I am otherwise a part) to discard and throw under the bus the groups that make up what should be its political base in favor of the next most oppressed group ever, at least in America. Working class -> black people -> women -> gays -> trans/non-binary -> ?

[–]MarkJeffersonTight defenses and we draw the line 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Mental short-cuts is right. I heard someone say they are using the same inclusive "template" people developed for LGB acceptance without looking closer to see if it is even appropriate for the TQ+, which I don't think it is. Also, the political dichotomy/divide is an obstacle that may prevent them from looking at the issue more objectively. If they are on the left politically they will probably side with those of the side of the debate who are left-wing as well. Those would be the TRAs. In this situation it may not matter who makes the better arguments. Like you said, even if the person on the other side of the debate "sounds like they make sense, it’s really a dog whistle and they have nefarious intent." It's hard to shake that kind of assumption about people you don't generally agree with politically.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I think people validate them because they don't want to be fired from their jobs or expelled form their friendship circles. It's blackmail.

[–]adultxhumanxfemaledie mad about it 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I honestly think that society at large doesn't give a shit because it doesn't affect them and it's easy to use the "proper" pronoun and move on with their day. Society is heteronormative by sheer majority alone.

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[–]witchdicktor 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Kind of off-topic but still not.

In a Japanese LGBT survey that surveyed 348,000 people, these statistics were mentioned

By sexual orientation, 2.8 percent described themselves as bisexual while 1.4 percent said they were questioning their sexuality. The proportion that described themselves as asexual and gay was 0.9 percent in both cases. By gender identity, 2.5 percent identified as nonbinary (not strictly identifying as male or female) followed by transgender at 1.8 percent, while 1.2 percent said they were questioning their gender identity.

More people are questioning their gender, identifying as non-binary or identifying as trans than they are identifying as gay. That seems really, really weird to me.

[–]oofreesouloo⚡super lesbian⚡ 24 insightful - 1 fun24 insightful - 0 fun25 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because sexuality isn't a choice, and 'choosing your special unique' gender is. Such a non sense.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is exactly why I want the TQ+ dropped. To be nonbinary, all you have to do is identify as such. And this makes it possible for spaces that were intended for gay, lesbian and bisexual people to be taken over and dominated by straight people who call themselves nonbinary.

By the way, why are there nonbinary people in Japan? I would have figured that the Japanese wouldn't be this stupid to let this ideology into their country. But this craze has happened over there. What gives? Hopefully, LGB activists and Japanese society at large won't pander to these morons.

[–]witchdicktor 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

By the way, why are there nonbinary people in Japan?¨

Because the societal expectations and gender roles for men and women are so strict in Japan so that when you don't conform to those expectations, you '' naturally '' start to feel like you don't belong and you are not a man or a woman. I speculate that even liking the same sex, a lot of people would conflate with something to do with gender instead of sexuality. '' I'm a man but I like men, but men don't like men so I must not be a man '' etc. Doesn't help that LGBT education and LGBT representation isn't that great.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That’s terrible to hear.

By the way, is Japan becoming more gay friendly? Or has trans activism taken over?

[–]witchdicktor 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It's getting better, you see more drama's with gay main characters, JRPGs with romances often have a same sex route and Youtube is becoming a big venue for LGBT content creators, gay male couples and them doing cute everyday stuff kind of channels are becoming bigger. But there's still plenty of misconceptions about LGBT and I think people tolerate such people, but not really accept or understand them. Most Japanese people will never have any contact with LGBT people in their lifetime.

Trans activism hasn't taken over, not from what I've seen.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m glad that trans activism hasn’t taken over in Japan. Hopefully it never will.

[–]CAB_Life 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Definitely not off topic and really interesting. That’s close to the total sum of 8-10% of most populations being LGBT, which we’ve statistically known since like the 90s, but it also makes a case for the alarming shift in ideology where these people would’ve previously identified as gay, lesbian or bi and are now picking different monikers. The “alarming” part is that you didn’t need a cocktail of life-long drugs and surgeries to previously affirm oneself.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 22 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 0 fun23 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The concept of "valid" itself is invalid. It doesn't mean anything when used in reference to stupid "identities."

So no, I don't think nonbinary is "valid". I also think nonbinary is inherently a concept that harms intersex people. I can't count the number of times I've been called a third sex, "not really a man" or "nonbinary" because of my condition and/or appearance.

[–]SeasideLimbs 21 insightful - 1 fun21 insightful - 0 fun22 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It seems like a way to attain the positive societal associations with trans identity that exist right now (being brave, being an underdog, being special) without any of the effort that usually came with (having to take medication, having to undergo surgery, having to go through a lot of legal trouble for the sake of changing one's name and ID.)

It also seems like a political identity more-so than a gender identity, which might be due to people using it more as a way to say "fuck gender norms and patriarchy" than to soothen any supposed feelings of dysphoria. While very, very rare, I have seen right-wing and far-right binary trans people. I have yet to see literally a single right-wing or far-right non-binary person.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 12 insightful - 10 fun12 insightful - 9 fun13 insightful - 10 fun -  (0 children)

"Hey, I made a tattoo, now I am in your LGBTQ+ crowd too as Non-Binary!"

[–]Void-knight 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I have a friend who identifies as nb but I suspect it's because they don't care about gender norms enough to identify as m/f. I can understand that, I just wish they'd take it a step further and realize they can still id as their biological sex while not caring about the gender bullshit.

[–][deleted] 12 insightful - 9 fun12 insightful - 8 fun13 insightful - 9 fun -  (0 children)

It’s non-valid

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Not valid. It's like claiming that a light cannot be off nor on. These people are at best stubborn, but seemingly just looking to cause trouble.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 17 insightful - 8 fun17 insightful - 7 fun18 insightful - 8 fun -  (0 children)

a light cannot be off nor on

Schrödinger's gender

[–]adultxhumanxfemaledie mad about it 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Of course it isn't valid. Science tells us there are two and only two sexes. We are either one or the other and your chromosomes don't give a damn about your feelings. And I for one am done being nice about it and will no longer validate anyone's delusions. Nice for what?

[–]shveya 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nonbinary as a label or "gender ID" is not even slightly valid. Nobody is "binary" in the way that genderists think they are, as nobody's personality perfectly aligns with stereotypes tied to one of the sexes.

[–]verystablegenius 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. it’s not “valid”. And what’s even less “valid” is making me change my language to address you. fuck off.

[–]RedEyedWarriorGay | Male | 🇮🇪 Irish 🇮🇪 | Antineoliberal | Cocks are Compulsory 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No. Absolutely not. Non-binary people are either:

  1. Delusional,
  2. Attention-seeking, or
  3. Seeking to boss GLB people around while still appearing progressive.

The fact that governments are entertaining the delusions of these people is frightening, to say the least.

[–]Alma_Esmeraude 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

No. We've had gender-nonconforming people prominently in the public eye since the 70s. (Glam rockers come to mind, lol). They didn't claim that they were somehow not a woman or not a man because of how they dressed. It's why I'm massively confused by this subset of people thinking that makeup, hair, clothing makes their "gender" (sex) nonexistent.

Really, it just seems like non-binary is GNC with a massive chip on their shoulders. They want attention and special accolades for adopting "subversive" styles of dress that subcultures have been doing for like...decades.

[–]KCStuffedAnimal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. It's shocking, how denying the validity of one's genitalia so often amounts to cross-dressing, and mostly cross-dressing as female. I grew up in a house full of women and believe me, being female is not all about hair, make-up, perfume, wardrobe choices, a wiggly walk, etcetera! Any number of Transwomen and non-binary folks that I've observed seem caught up in gender stereotypes at the most superficial level.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes. I have been one of those GNC people since essentially birth, but without labels or terms for it. I learned to just be me without diving off the reality cliff at the same time and asking others to go with me. It can be done.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 10 insightful - 6 fun10 insightful - 5 fun11 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

I don't get that for shit.

Don't worry, they too.

[–]IAmSatanVery... very... very gay. 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

no

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Absolutely 100% no.

In my country (I don't like to say which one it is, but somewhere in Asia and Islamic) we don't even have a word for gender. The word "seks" only means the physical act of sexual intercourse, it doesn't mean male/female. There is another word, I don't want to say what it is, I'll just write it as "XXXX" which would literally translate to "type" like are you the male type, or the female type? Our word for "homosexual" would be translated into English literally as "equaltype" which is the same word for gay man or lesbian, and bisexual is naturally included in it, but nowadays, we are called by the English word "bisexual" because that's more specific.

I looked through scientific dictionaries the other day to see if I couldn't find a special equivalent for "Gender" and no, it does not exist. If anyone in my country tried to explain this sex vs. gender shit, we don't even have the proper words to do it with, we'd have to borrow the English word, and then try to explain it somehow. The explanation would end up being something like "Sometimes the female soul gets born into the the male body or the male soul gets born into the male body" but that doesn't even make sense in the context of Islam because the "ruh" does not have a sex/gender, it's just your spirit ("ruh" is what we call the "soul" and I understand the Iranian and Pakistani mullahs decided to fan-fiction that fact into something totally different, but that's one of the biggest problems with Islam. It's a hydra with a million heads all pulling in separate directions.)

I Googled what the religious leaders in my country had to say about "gendered spirits," and everything I read points to there being no such thing. One spiritual leader went on to say that the fact that there is no such thing as gendered spirits proves that transsexuality is a mental illness that is developed very young (the examples he used were of two IRL people, both who claimed to 'just know' they were the opposite sex from age 2 and age 4. We don't have cases in this country of people discovering being trans as a teen or adult, because porn is banned here, and most people can't afford to be online 24/7 hiding behind VPNs just so they can coom.) He went on to say that even very small children can reject their "sex(type) identity" as some form of coping mechanism due to what they are experiencing in their environment.

Yes this is an Islamic scholar saying this, and I am an ex-Muslim, but what he's saying makes sense. This non-binary shit is a coping mechanism these girls adapted because they don't want to deal with being women.

[–]indeepshadowsBi woman 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for this! I've been wondering how Islamic countries view this phenomenon, but have been too lazy to do the research.

[–]ravenclaww 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nope. I see non-binary as regressive because it implies that everyone else adheres to gender stereotypes. It's strange how it came about because in the 2000s, there were guys in the emo/scene crowd who wore eyeliner. As far as I'm aware, no one was questioning their gender identity or labelling "non-binary" at them. Visual kei was at their peak as well, and male band members literally wore dresses with a full face of makeup and coiffed hair.

[–]fuck_reddit 9 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 5 fun10 insightful - 6 fun -  (0 children)

The only limiting factor on stupidity is death.

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

No. Being a dog with three legs is valid, but it doesn't mean you're not a dog anymore or a different kind of dog. We are still binary. It's a developmental defect, not something on a sliding scale or something in the middle.

[–]levoyageur718293 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If nonbinary is valid, then there would only be two people in the entire world who are binary, since everyone else would necessarily be on a spectrum between them. Otherwise, you'd have to draw an arbitrary line between "non-binary" and "not non-binary enough to be non-binary."

[–]Shinjin_NanaNopes faster than an Aeldari Jetbike 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Everyone is non-binary. The idea of pure sexist stereotypes or being labeled as identifying with them if you're not labeling yourself non-binary is utter horseshit.

The only thing that really exists is sexual dimorphism and the inability to change biological sex.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, it's not valid because it implies that everyone else identifies with sexist stereotypes.

[–]wafflegaffWoman. SuperBi. 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

As someone who never fit gender stereotypes anyway and doesn't non-conform intentionally either (concern about this is all a kerfuffle in other people's heads, and they should find something better to do), and who is also opposed to reductionist self-labeling, which sadly is now all the rage, I am generally on board with this perspective: https://archive.vn/UGDpx

Snippet: "1. If gender is a spectrum, not a binary, then everyone is “non-binary”. This basic logical point should be obvious, and yet is denied by most of the proponents of the spectrum model of gender – indeed, it is often met with angry objections from those who label themselves non-binary. But it’s hard to see how this point can be refuted. If gender is a spectrum, not a binary, then every individual alive is non-binary, by definition. There are not just two points. There is a range of points, and we all of us fall somewhere along the spectrum. And then the label “non-binary” becomes redundant, as it fails to pick out a special category of people."

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The transcult has created a language and narrative out of whole cloth to justify their existence.

They just refuse to allow people to be who and what they are. Humans are not gender stereotypes.

[–]0BCB9A795AE259 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you, exactly. Just another iteration of not like other girls in the current context. Absolutely meaningless and mindless way of dealing with sexism, instead of calling it out and naming it. Hope it goes out of fashion soon.

[–]JulienMayfair 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We're all non-binary. No one individual conforms exactly to all sex-based gender stereotypes. No one is 100% masculine, and no one is 100% feminine. Thus, because everyone in non-binary, it's not some special category. It's just a fancy name for a distribution of personality characteristics.

[–]Some-unoriginal-guy 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I never thought of it as a valid thing, because I have seen people that call themselves non binary when they are or at least just appear to be gender non comforming

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When I was younger and the first instances of this shit were gestating in the depths of cesspools like tumblr, I thought it was inherently stupid to define yourself as defying labels and conventions by using a new label and set of conventions. It immediately defeated the purpose of what they were trying to say.

Then, once I was old enough to also appreciate that non-binary hinges on preserving antiquated gender stereotypes, I also realized it was ass backwards.

Definitely not valid. This whole gender nonsense is really just trying to put more weight and "uwu im so unique" clout to very basic personality traits/likes/dislikes. It runs directly contrary to what so many groups (Feminists being the most proactive example) spent so long trying to get people to accept; your sex doesn't come with a set of criteria you must meet, otherwise you're "something else".

[–]peakitypeaked 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nonbinary people set the whole feminism movement back a hundred years. They are the ones perpetuating gender stereotypes and giving validity to people who believe and uphold sexist stereotypes based on gender. It's a crazy concept and those people are stupid as all hell.

[–]a_blue_bird 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It's meaningless.

[–]genre 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

no

[–]yishengqingwa666Adult Human Female 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No.

[–]TovasshiDefinitely a house plant 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No.

I work with a lot of masculine straight women in a shop setting. We all turn wrenches and get greasie. Non of them are fans of makeup or dresses. But they are perfectly fine identifying as women and the men were work with respect us for the way we are.

Every non-binary person I've met has been an office type. They're generally on the feminine side with what I'd describe as a specific "look". They all seem to follow a kind of fashion trend of what they think androgynous is but they never dress to blend in. They always dress to stand out. I'd describe it as rainbow goth.

[–]Bahgawd 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Not at all, no.