all 26 comments

[–]artetolife 43 insightful - 3 fun43 insightful - 2 fun44 insightful - 3 fun -  (8 children)

It makes no sense on any level, but like all fake news it exists because people are too lazy to check facts. It's also very American - they want to believe that they lead the world in everything and they have no problem revising history to make it look like they did.

[–]Smolders1Cock is god's greatest gift.[S] 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (7 children)

It's so brainless. They're taking advantage of the fact that accurate information regarding the riots isn't easy to find and are essentially writing it to their liking just so it seems like their exclusionary practices are valid.

[–]artetolife 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

It's become ridiculously mythologised even on this sub, where people give far too much credit to people like Storme Delarverie and Fred Sargeant (both remarkable people but not for anything they did at stonewall)

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 20 insightful - 3 fun20 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I think main focus on those people is because they are still alive and not silent.

Fred recently was talking just about that and about header of this topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CirF3lBHL_o

He made his own site, where he is trying to preserve history and sharing memories about those times and speaking about people who did what.

He is taking too much on himself (he always was this narcissistic), but he was there with everyone, so I can respect that, as I was on same position but in our country. And he is mentioning people who really did something or lead them all, too.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Fred is not just alive but fighting the TRAscists with all his might.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 7 insightful - 7 fun7 insightful - 6 fun8 insightful - 7 fun -  (2 children)

TRAscists

Does that word rhyme with 'fascist' or 'racist'? 'Trashists' has a certain mellifluous quality to it...

[–]deliciousdogfoodmy name isnt a puppyplay reference i swear 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That all depends on the context.

If they're using black people to prop up their ideologies whilst simultaneously putting them down, it rhymes with racist.

If they're calling for the shutdown of spaces inhabited even tangentially by people who don't fit in with their perceived perfect world, it rhymes with fascist.

[–]ChunkeeguyTeam T*RF Fuck Yeah 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Fascists

[–]fuck_reddit 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. We don't even know who starts modern riots, even with digital phone cameras, audio recordings, 24/7 reporting, the internet, and tons of police everywhere. How is it that we ""know"" who started stonewall?

[–]yousaythosethingsFind and Replace "gatekeeping" with "having boundaries" 23 insightful - 1 fun23 insightful - 0 fun24 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

As someone who studied history and historiography, this narrative pisses me off so much because even if there was truth to it (there isn’t) it doesn’t make sense anyway. It’s just a very overly simplistic way of looking at historical events. I’m American and I blame the way history is taught in primary through high school. You’re just taught a bunch of facts and told that “this happened, here are the 1-3 things that motivated everyone, and here’s how everyone felt about it” without regard for how we know what we know, what the sources are, what their biases are, etc. And it’s because it’s all part of an indoctrination of how we’re supposed to feel about our country and its history and our country’s contributions to the world. I think every country does this to a certain extent. I’ve taken history classes at 4 different universities in 3 other countries, but the way America does it is very on-the-nose.

All it takes is for us to take a step back in the present and to realize how diverse the population is and the diversity of the interests at stake to realize that historical events cannot be summarized so neatly.

[–]reluctant_commenter 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's a really good point. Yeah, people are just fed stuff in textbooks which are surprisingly biased..

[–]bettergaythangrumpy 13 insightful - 2 fun13 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Not sure what you mean by 'not welcomed.' Were you there?

In my lived memory, trans people did march in Gay Pride in the 1980's, but within the community groups they belonged to, rather than as a separate contingent. Cross-dressing men who called themselves "queens" also marched but few of them claimed to be "really women". The self-described "pansexuals" didn't appear until the 1990's, possibly emerging from the "Men's spirituality movement", and were viewed with confusion by march organizers.

As for fact-checking what happened at Stonewall, trained historians like primary sources, also known as eye-witness accounts. The newspaper The Village Voice had offices just down the block from the bar, and reporters were present when the episode started. They are considered a primary source.

Don't know if I'm allowed to post this link, but here is an archive copy of the paper (start on the front page): https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=KEtq3P1Vf8oC&dat=19690703&printsec=frontpage&hl=en

[–]SeasideLimbs 8 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 3 fun -  (2 children)

Jesus christ, gay people were cringe back then. Thanks for the link! I've only seen text excerpts until now. Some passages are unclear because of all the homosexual male=feminine rhetoric so common back then, but there are no mentions of anyone who believed himself to be a woman, only drag queens. Side-note: I'm curious where Ginsberg came up with that 10% number.

[–]bettergaythangrumpy 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Side-note: I'm curious where Ginsberg came up with that 10% number.

Probably from the Kinsey report.

[–]kwallio 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And Kinsey basically ignored his own data and made the 10% number up.

[–]Smolders1Cock is god's greatest gift.[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Apologies, that was poor wording on my end. I wasn't there to experience Stonewall and similar marches.

I dunno how to explain what I meant exactly so I'll just phrase it in the best possible way: "The people that the majority often consider transgender (Marsha P Johnson and Rivera) weren't actually allowed to participate in pride parades." (From what I've heard, they were banned from attending in 1973 for whatever reason. Apologies if that's incorrect, just what I've read).

I'm honestly not incredibly educated on the subject, because actual concrete info regarding the Stonewall Riots is a bit hard to find for whatever reason. Thank you for the link, though! Have a nice day! :D

[–]bettergaythangrumpy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Apologies on my part for snapping at you. I should have taken a few more deep breaths before replying.

Like everyone on this thread, I am frustrated by TRAs who make shit up and call it history. Especially when the internet has made good historic research so much easier than it used to be. As another poster alluded, gay history is not so easily summarized.

[–]reluctant_commenter 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Username checks out? :)

I appreciated reading your perspective. I'm glad people are thoughtful about how they come across to each other in this sub, it's refreshing.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 11 insightful - 3 fun11 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

Even if the entire cast of the Stonewall riots was all trans people, including the cops and the mafia bar owners and everyone, I still don't need to respect them. Anyone who says "I did XYZ therefore you owe me!" is an emotional abuser and manipulator.

[–]reluctant_commenter 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

THIS. Seriously! I see all over the place on Tumblr "trans people did this for you" "trans people did all this work" like honestly, even apart from the lack of evidence to support their claims, that is just such an entitled worldview.

[–]Ninaran 7 insightful - 8 fun7 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 8 fun -  (1 child)

"No hun, she didn't call herself transgender because that wasn't a term back then. xx"

[–]sudd3nclar1ty 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Much longer than that, but doesn't change the premise that LGB issues have been consumed by T as history is being rewritten.

"the first true pioneer in the field was Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld. As a gay physician, he devoted his studies to the fields of sex and gender. Hirschfeld was the first to coin two of the most popular terms to describe transgenderism: transvestism and transsexualism...In 1910, he wrote a two volume monograph"

http://www.cinematter.com/tshistory.html

[–]notdelusionalbased faggot 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

The concept of transgenderism wasn't even a thing. This nonsense didn't really take off until the past few years.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman🇬🇧🌳🟦 7 insightful - 5 fun7 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

BuT waHt AbouT tWO SpirIT pEoPLE

[–]lavender_menace 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

2SP weren’t a thing before 1990 and even then not every tribe accepts it as a thing. Many didn’t have those and those who did made it up as a fringe group to other gay men (note that almost never applied to women).

Here’s a cool article about 2SP i’ve read recently.

[–]psufanof2631 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where did this stupid narrative even come from?

Revisionist history. The trans movement wants to rewrite history so they can further their agenda and co-opt the LGB community for themselves.