We need to abolish gender, bring the discourse back to destroying gender stereotypes, we are the progressives here.

submitted by Ambisextrous from self.LGBDropTheT

Even if you cannot expressly state you’re opinions on the trans movement in real life or on personal social media, I personally believe there is still some things we can do. Obviously the concept of trans and non binary is about enforcing archaic stereotypes of men and women to push their agenda. However, if we start pushing the idea of destroying gender that was what progressives once supported, it will lead more people to question the trans movement.

Not all of us unfortunately have the ability to speak out because of risks to our jobs/education so this is the least we can do. Uplift masculine women and feminine men. Point out whenever gender stereotypes are used. Push this idea more in your personal lives and social media’s. It seems we as a society have regressed and it’s become too acceptable to boil gender down to it’s stereotypes. I personally, whenever I hear something trans rights related am going to say “I don’t believe in gender” and move on swiftly.

What are your thoughts on this? Does it make sense?

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[–]SilverWolf 29 insightful - 2 fun29 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

You know, thats actually exactly how I feel these days. I stopped believing in gender when it was no longer the same as sex. There is no male or female "feeling" and I guess that makes me "agender," since I don't feel male or female, other than the fact that I have a penis, but whatever ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[–]Ambisextrous[S] 21 insightful - 2 fun21 insightful - 1 fun22 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah stereotypes have become so rigid now that anything outside of the norm means you are not your birth gender. Unfortunately this also includes being interested in the same sex...

[–]Ladis_Wascheharuum 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I went through a brief period where I though agender would be the label for me. Gender self-identification seemed so important to everyone on the internet, so I felt pressured to have that identity, and since I didn't "feel" like a man or a woman (I only felt that I physically have a dick) then the logical conclusion was that I was agender.

Then I realizes that all these super-duper-important labels and identities that it was "literal violence" to get wrong, actually could mean anything and everything and nothing at any time. The whole concept was totally incoherent and the explanations made no sense. I finally figured out it was all bullshit made up by people wanting to be special or feel offended, and a lot of gullible people wanting to belong got swept up in it.

My sex is male. I have a penis and testicles. Don't ask me about my gender until you can define it properly.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 7 insightful - 3 fun7 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I would say that majority of Earth population are "agender", because almost no one "feeling" their sex, and most people trying to fight gender stereotypes.

And I have no idea how it is "to feel a male", while being male for almost half a century.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 23 insightful - 7 fun23 insightful - 6 fun24 insightful - 7 fun -  (4 children)

I honestly feel like I'm doing a lot of "damage" just by existing as a feminine, non-stereotypical, non-flamboyant-for-straight-entertainment, male.

It's a win-win. TRAs get angry because I'm feminine/androgynous yet still call myself a guy, and am not a "trans woman" or "nonbinary." They're also mad because I'm intersex and still consider myself male and not some kind of alien third sex (which they use for their "sex isn't real" arguments). Conservatives are mad because I go against "traditional" gender roles. Straight people and other gay people alike are mad because I'm a feminine guy, yet I'm not "submissive" and ditzy, I still have an attitude.

And just about everyone is mad that my femininity is well... natural (as in body shape) and non-forced. If I was female I would probably be called "tomboyish" for wearing dark clothes and liking some "boy stuff."

See, that's the category that pisses everyone off. If you're a hyperfeminine, caricatured MTF or gay man, people are okay with that, because they believe feminine = weak, silly, hysterical, and that you're still conforming to their roles, just by going to the opposite one. (And it's profitable. Funny Hilarious Flamboyant Gay Man is entertaining and makes money. Normal ass androgynous person who doesn't exist to be stunning and dramatic doesn't.)

But if you're in the middle? If you like both "girl things" and "boy things?" If you played with both dolls, dinosaurs, and cars as a kid? If you wear makeup but also have a "masculine" personality (aka, being assertive and standing up for yourself)? That freaks people the fuck out. They see that as a threat because you can't be shoved into a box.

When people criticize and insult me, it basically always boils down to my looks and how "girly" I am. And when someone is visibly upset by the fact that I'm GNC, yet don't fit their expectations (eg: A neckbeard starts throwing a tantrum because I'm a feminine guy but not a submissive pornified "femboi") I feel like my life energy is renewed. I will feed off their tears and I will use it to continue being an androgynous trouble-maker. There's no stopping it.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 8 insightful - 4 fun8 insightful - 3 fun9 insightful - 4 fun -  (1 child)

Brofist from femme top who collect dolls and dominates masculine guys.

[–]OPPRESSED_REPTILIANIntersex male | GNC | Don't call me "a gay", "twink" or "queen" 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I love your attitude and I hope you never change

[–]CrashCourse 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Who'd a thunk it? GNC defying expectations.

[–]PenseePansyBio-Sex or Bust 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This gives me life :)

Not that I'm intersex. Or male. Or butch. Or was ever anything even close to a tomboy. But when it comes to being "in the middle", as you put it?

Me too.

'Cause even though my natural inclinations have always been pretty female-typical (or at least "gender-neutral"), the way that I expressed them apparently wasn't.

Too cerebral; too analytical. Not taking enough of a real-world, social form, where they could translate into emotional labor for others, esp. guys. (For example, despite my abiding interest in fashion/makeup/glamor, I've never much cared to actually WEAR any of it.)

Doesn't seem like much of a gender-violation, you say? Tell THAT to all the people who've taken offense at it over the years! Because they've certainly made me suffer for it, from school bullies to my own family.

Granted, it's not quite the same thing as the Reptilian version... but still seems to qualify for gender "middle-ness" (at least if the way that it freaks people out is any indication).

And yes, that makes us a threat. But not just because we can't (and, moreover, won't) be shoved in a box, I think.

Because we are living proof that, in reality, there IS no box AT ALL.

THAT'S what freaks them out. Evidence of gender being an illusion.

And it certainly is. A profoundly-harmful one. So I love that you're doing it damage every day. Just by being yourself.

And I especially love the form that this takes. Your unabashed natural femininity, which you won't allow to be misunderstood as weakness, or as conflicting with maleness/"masculine"-assigned qualities. As someone female who's always been a gender-offender for having a feminine sensibility in a non-feminine way... just knowing that you're out there makes me happy. (Plus I love the way you wrote this, too. Finally: an online manifesto that I can actually get behind!)

TL;DR: what HE said! (And that the gender-middle comes in many forms, including females with an essentially-feminine sensibility having an insufficiently-feminine approach to it. And maybe that the outrage it provokes isn't so much about being unable to fit gender-middlers into a box as their disproving said box's very existence.)

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 15 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

I don't believe in gender either. But whenever I would write that on /r/gendercritical, someone would always rush over to downvote me. I couldn't figure out if it was actual GC users, or twans uwu lurkers. (I guess I'm hoping someone familiar with /r/gc can hop in and explain. Like, fuck their downvotes, I never changed my opinion or stopped voicing it, but it always confused me that people in a gender critical sub would be critical of someone for not believing in santa claus gender.)

[–]artetolife 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's what their official position is supposed to be, but a lot of them seem to ignore the name and just use it as a place to bash men/trans/liberals/etc.

[–]Ambisextrous[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think it’s best if we stopped using the word gender altogether, it is sex based rights that are at risk here. But also interested in other perspectives:)

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree "gender" needs to fuck off. When I was little, we just used "gender" instead of "sex" because saying "sex" out loud was awkward. Splitting sex and gender into two separate concepts (but also the same concept, when it's convenient for them, and running the goalposts back and forth from the two positions) has been one of the worst ideas anyone has ever come up with.

[–]Monyeti 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I very specifically call out when people use gender instead of sex, especially regarding sex-based rights. I also am very careful to make sure I use the correct term and try to avoid using gender altogether.

[–]Ambisextrous[S] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is probably the best way to do it, TRAs will try and twist anybody’s words to their agenda so we have to be annoyingly specific for now I feel

[–][deleted] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

I was on GC for a few years, and over the past year, it became more heavily populated by more women (who seemed to be crossover on ppf and fds and rarely the other radfem-linked subs) who started arguing that biological essentialism was real - men are inherent rapists, etc. Which radical feminist philosophers have always been vehemently against as they believe that gendered (sex stereotypes based on biological categories) socialization is a social construct. They would ignore me whenever I asked if men were inherently anything, what did that make women, inherently? I was told that biological essentialism is wrong towards women and a-ok against men, despite saying if men are inherent rapists, you take away their accountability and choice to do so (and ignoring all the many men in their lives who weren't rapists). I get being traumatized by both patriarchy and men, but they still seemed to believe in the sex stereotypes that proved whatever grudge they had was inherent and not a choice. I would guess the downvoters were either the lurkers or if it was in the past year or so, potentially that same group of women.

[–]haveanicedaytoo💗💜💙 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks, that really explains it. I really wish the gender critical sub had been able to remain pure, just a place to criticize/denounce gender theory, not the shit on men and trans club. Like, I get that it was a radfem sub, but still, it sucked that we never stuck to the actual topic. I wanted it to be a 'shit on the concept of gender' club, not a 'shit on penis-havers and handmaidens of penis-havers' club.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Me too. I get that the trans stuff became so large so quickly it was overwhelming, but in the earlier years, we talked about all kinds of women's issues from all areas of the globe - especially the harms of gender. I missed that. When it became the trans-focused sub, I really, desperately, wanted a sub that discussed radical feminist theory and furthered the knowledge from the second wave. I got super pumped when the radfemtheory sub started a couple weeks before the ban, but I got booted on day one because it was the same ppf/fds women saying men were inherent rapists and that male babies should be aborted. It's funny - I regularly spoke about feminist issues in a pile of non-feminist subs, and that was the only sub I ever got banned from.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I was on GC for five years. I really think the TRAS infiltrated a long time ago. Slowly, they built up their level of power and control on Reddit/Twitter, to the point that we see today.

[–]Criticallacitirc 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

They know this, which is why there's been an uptick in people arguing that sex is a spectrum & sex is a social construct. They're trying to make the word sex as meaninglessness as they've made gender.

[–]Ambisextrous[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah that’s where it’s getting dangerous, and what do you even say to these people? They are just beyond delusional, it’s a waste of time.

[–][deleted] 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

That was what the second wave was about. Eliminating gender stereotypes, equality in the workplace/pay, pregnancy protection related to employment, abortion rights, to name a few.

I think it went off the rails in the mid-1990’s, when gender PAC’s were formed and they began to lobby. Along with that, women allowed women’s studies programs to change to gender studies.

Gaslighting commenced.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Someone commented on a post that I had made that gender is not a social construct.

Yes, it is.

[–]MezozoicGayoldschool gay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LGBT was always fighting against gender stereotypes and for freedom of expression. Gender theory stereotypes are just masked homophobia and misogyny by more "accepted term".

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

what if your not a progressive D:

[–]Ambisextrous[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You’re a progressive in your view of gender like it or not, they are the conservatives here.

[–]xanditAGAB (Assigned Gay at Birth) 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

true