Jordan Peterson's "free speech" Thinkspot is a subscription-based private club/cult platform (ignoring abundant alternatives like SaidIt, Mastodon, Minds, Steemit, etc.) cloistered away from criticisms and challenges. Cowardly raising his rates he escaped a socialism debate with prof Richard Wolff.

submitted by JasonCarswell from (self.JordanPeterson)

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[–]sproketboy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Wolff comes down to one thing - Co-ops. Except you can create co-ops now. No one is stopping you. Go ahead.

The problems come from forcing everyone to be in a co-op which is the inevitable outcome of this authoritarian ideology. You can't escape it. Go spend some time with the Venezuelans, the Uyghurs, the Cubans, the Ukrainians, the Romanians, the Russians, etc, etc.. and ask them how well this worked out for them. But I guess you can't create a "utopia" without breaking a few eggs, right?

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Wolff admits there are 3 kinds of socialism - and admits that 2 are big and haven't worked historically.

I'm not denying that co-ops can't be done now. You might also wonder why co-ops aren't part of the common vernacular, why they aren't in movies or television or promoted as the solutions they could be.

Further, why aren't they offered as an alternative, like in Italy, to unemployment and/or welfare?

Capitalists don't want co-ops to exist or be promoted. "They" don't want power in the hands of the people. "They" don't want fair wages and investments and community control.

Now you're the one leaping to conclusions, and that's a mighty HUGE leap from "no one is stopping you" to "forcing everyone to be in a co-op" - without so much as an explanation how this "is the inevitable outcome of this authoritarian ideology". Co-oops aren't defined and each one is custom and unique to it's self-determined purpose. How the hell is that an "authoritarian ideology"?

You are mistaking the 3rd small socialism for the first 2 types of socialism in Big Gov. Regardless how capitalist or socialist or communist the Big Gov is, all Big Gov is evil. Only since 9-11 the USA's war of terror has killed 35 MILLION people. That's no small thing. Stalin killed 40 million. Mao killed 100 million. Big Gov turns all suffering into statistics for more control.

No one is talking about utopias or eggs. And I'm not even talking about taking sides in the Hegelian dialectic of Left vs Right or Capitalism vs Communism. I'm only interested in promoting critical analysis, alternatives, and solutions.

If Peterson is too afraid his pathetic economic ideas will be punched full of holes by a Marxist professor then that's on him. Peterson has some terrific ideas and a great platform that could help countless people much more - but he is part of the dialectic and plays his part as a limited hangout. He can't even admit 9-11 was a great big lie.

[–]sproketboy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

How the hell is that an "authoritarian ideology"?

Because you can make a co-op and then a competitor makes a "normal" business and will out compete you. In a working market system the most cost effective ideas will usually win. So if co-ops were such a great solution they would be more widely used regardless of "promotion" in movies and TV. You might like this book on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence - there's a series as well but I can't find it. Hopefully the entire series will be archived but here's a good episode https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3agg64LM88

The fundamental issue with Marxism is that everyone has to be on board for it to work which is not going to happen.

Only since 9-11 the USA's war of terror has killed 35 MILLION people

Agreed that the US didn't handle 9-11 properly. Gov is too influenced by the military industrial complex.

Stalin killed 40 million. Mao killed 100 million.

People can die in capitalist systems but in socialism systems the deaths are by design.

And for JBP - yes I wish he wouldn't waste time on yet-more platforms. The IDW types should just get together with minds.com or similar. I would prefer if he continued working on his biblical series.

[–]JasonCarswell[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes and no. Cost effective - but at what costs?

A competitor may manufacture in China cheaply, then in the USA no one has jobs to afford the goods. Outsourcing is bad long term economics. Further, that competitor must ship the goods, polluting the Earth, etc. Those goods have no intellectual property protections either (though that's a scam on a whole other level) and could "feed" the competitor's competition who will only deal with Walmart or Amazon and can't ever be beat. If you're trying to make a buck at any expense, then sure, get while you can and fuck everyone else - like a game of Monopoly. Then your forests look like Haiti where no trees remain because everyone needed firewood and no one cared for the commons or community.

So if co-ops were such a great solution they would be more widely used regardless of "promotion" in movies and TV.

I'm not saying they are promoted, rather there is a disturbing Dynamic Silence on the matter. Intentional NON-promotion and suppression. There are an abundance of concepts that are intentionally suppressed by "mainstream" corporate media. You have to admit that a LOT of media and government and corporations lie to us a LOT. Once you admit that, then EVERYTHING is then open for skepticism, analysis, criticism, and triangulation on what you find to be true.

Thanks for the links. I'm skeptical of most economists and "business" experts. All the games are all rigged by the select few in their secret societies, private boardrooms, NGOs, and think tanks. Best selling books to the masses are more often than not selling us something they want us to buy into. You won't find many anarchist, Green, libertarian, or revolutionary books on best seller lists. Nonetheless, those sources are loaded with information, just as Wikipedia is utterly rigged but a good place to go for the "official" narrative on things.

The fundamental issue with Marxism is that everyone has to be on board for it to work which is not going to happen.

Not everyone needs to be on board with worker co-ops - just those in one.

Your statement can apply to many other things - and fall on its face in the same way:

The fundamental issue with Taxes / Obamacare / Endless Wars / Big Goverment is that everyone has to be on board for it to work which is not going to happen. Nonetheless, we have Big Gov and all these other scams.

People can die in capitalist systems but in socialism systems the deaths are by design.

LOL. You don't think it's by design? Seriously? Oops, we killed a few million folks here and a few million there... Accidents were made.

Yes, I actually liked Peterson Bibilical stuff, though dry. He broke it down far better than anyone I'd ever seen as a youth or adult. He's more like Joseph Campbell or a film critic making sense of it. Regardless, I'm still an atheist - but I can appreciate it all in far more depth.

IDW? I agree that Minds is good, but the more decentralized the better IMO. Minds can be shut down. Decentralization can't. When the totalitarian left or totalitarian right blur and merge there will be no difference and there will be no freedom for our minds or Minds.

Is your name inspired by Sprokets? (It was the 1990s Mike Myers' Saturday Night Live series of skits - by far my favourite series on SNL. But my singular favourite skit was called "Bulkan Dirt Diving" circa 1986 or so, which sadly remains absent from YouTube in its entirety.)

[–]sproketboy 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I would highly recommend Basic Economics by Thomas Sowell. It's not political - just a clear explanation of how economics work. I'm a nerd so I got sproketboy nickname from an ex. ;)