GC Migrant Bird here. I can't believe how much they lied about us.

submitted by Kimaris from self.Introductions

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[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

The sexes are still quite definitely different, it's just that genders are changing. Or genders are staying the same and people are asking to be reclassified as the other sex/gender. Please be specific: it's not 'weirdos', it's overwhelmingly men/males. And if women are anxious about men, it's because they have exceedingly good reason to be.

I mean, if you don't think bathrooms need to be segregated by sex, then I guess people can urinate wherever they please. Individual cubicles seem pretty safe to me. But on the other hand, I've seen women reporting that they were harassed, spied on, or assaulted in bathrooms. So I would want an actual empirical risk assessment to show that mixed sex toilets are safe before I agreed to them.

Changing rooms are something else. They're segregated by sex because males have a nasty statistical tendency to sexually harass and assault females, and we therefore have a thoroughly justified desire not to get naked in the same space as them. Same for prisons and shelters. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say there will never be a risk assessment that shows this to be safe. But I'll change my mind if I see it, just like I'll change my mind about other things for which there is extraordinary evidence, if other, even more extraordinary evidence is provided.

Also, even if it's about something less than safety, like privacy or feeling comfortable, the question is, do you think females deserve the right to freedom of association in a society that remains, in significant ways, sexist, dangerous and uncomfortable for women? I do. So I think if women say they want single sex spaces--and many of them do in fact say this--then you need single sex spaces. I wish trans rights activists would push for third spaces. They seem to have a lot of funding, passion, and the ears of NGOs and policy makers. They could make it happen. But their goal isn't merely safety and dignity for trans people, it's full integration into their chosen sex/gender categories, including social validation of their identities.

[–]VulpesLeonesque 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

From my point of view, that of a man/male who like the overwhelming majority of other men/males, has never felt any desire to masturbate in public places, it IS weirdos.

"I mean, if you don't think bathrooms need to be segregated by sex, then I guess people can urinate wherever they please."

C'mon, that's not good-faith communicating; when did I say that? I said I'd like to replace all bathrooms with multiple mini-disabled-bathroom-style cubicles so we all get our own cosy little place to egest and wash, and don't have to deal with anyone else, of either sex or any gender.

I think both men and women need their own spaces to relax and be themselves without having to concern themselves with relating to the opposite sex, for a while.

All of you guys are very keen to tell me how threatened you feel by trans people, and I don't disbelieve you. What do you want done about them, though? Don't respond with another essay about how they're only doing it to threaten women and jerk off in public; my solution is lots of little cubicles, what's yours?

[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I wasn't communicating in bad faith; Your words "when the sexes were quite definitely different' left me unclear about what you believe. I wasn't sure whether you think bathrooms should be single sex. Lots of people don't think they need to be, so I wasn't wilfully misinterpreting you here--just a normal misunderstanding.

I think third spaces would be a compassionate and fair solution, and I believe the resources exist to make them a reality. I guess lots of self contained single bathrooms would be fine, but I expect that would take up a lot of space and be less practicable, if I understand your idea right (I'm imagining separate rooms, not a row of toilets separated by stalls that don't meet the floor or ceiling). I would be open to legitimate transexuals (I know this word is old fashioned and some people consider it offensive, but I'm not sure what else to call someone who actually 'transitions' as opposed to someone who just self-IDs... 'transgender' incorporates a range of relevantly different people) using whatever toilet they 'pass' in.

[–]VulpesLeonesque 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes, seperate rooms, but little ones; can't see that taking up more space than a whole extra bathroom. Solves your problem of not wanting to be in a room with them, and their problem of not wanting to be easily identified by queer-bashers, which seems to me to be at least as likely as them harming women.

As for letting ones who pass use bathrooms, that's kind of like permitting water to be wet, isn't it?

[–]Spikygrasspod 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A whole extra bathroom can have multiple cubicles. But little rooms works for me, because individual spaces are single sex spaces by default.

No, it isn't like water being wet. There's a difference between being entitled to use a facility, and getting away with it because no one notices. I'm sure people prefer to be legally entitled to use the room of their choice.