Alpiq and H2 plan to use hydroelectrical power for hydrogen. "Through its joint venture Hyundai Hydrogen Mobility, H2 Energy and Hyundai intend to bring hydrogen energy onto Swiss roads by 2025 – 600 more than originally announced"

submitted by [deleted] from electrive.com

sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun
you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (12 children)

and a massive 3% won't have their hydrogen produced by diesel, gas or coal derived electrickery

[–]Chop_Chop 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Just ignore China, Korea and Japan. One day soon, many North Americans are going to wake up and wonder how China took over the H2 fuel cell industry. It will be loads of fun to watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZsjcEDOQ3A

If you're not interested in H2, don't click on a headline with hydrogen in it.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (10 children)

If you're not interested in H2, don't click on a headline with hydrogen in it.

This is called "passive aggressive projection".

H2 is great, once the storage / transport issues are fully dealt with. (hard to beat octane for energy density and relative safety) But pretending it is a 'clean green' solution is nonsense. energy has to come from somewhere to create the H2, which is merely an energy storage medium. Like batteries, or springs.

[–]Chop_Chop 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

energy has to come from somewhere to create the H2

This is called "Assuming the reader knows nothing about H2"

Do you think anyone in the H2 industry doesn't know this?

In the future, do you think there will be MORE excess renewable energy or LESS excess renewable energy?

LA Times June 2019: California has too much solar power

Goldwind joins 20GW hydrogen plan in China

Like other wind-rich areas of China, Baicheng’s grid faces problems accommodating power from the 4.65GW of existing wind and solar capacity serving the city, leading to curtailment of output.... https://www.evwind.es/2019/07/20/goldwind-joins-20gw-hydrogen-plan-in-china/68122

Just curious, what country are you in?

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

A good debate has a solid footing. When you shift the goalposts, there's no learning, no gain, just a stupid game of chase.

H2 isn't inherently green. end of. Stop pretending it is and then we can appreciate its energy density together.

Answering your questions, if all of NZ's fleet went electric (and H2 is electric at source) then we'd need to DOUBLE our electrickery gen. So no, There will be LESS excess renewable energy, and that's before the hidden costs of those are considered.

[–]Chop_Chop 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

A good debate has a solid footing. When you shift the goalposts, there's no learning, no gain, just a stupid game of chase.

No goalposts were shifted. You wrote: "energy has to come from somewhere to create the H2" as if anyone that advocates H2 doesn't know this. Condescend all you want.

H2 isn't inherently green. Stop pretending it is and then we can appreciate its energy density together.

It is if it is made with renewable energy. Stop pretending that it is not.

There will be LESS excess renewable energy,

ROFL

You haven't begun to hear about hydrogen. Take that to the bank.

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

It is if it is made with renewable energy. Stop pretending that it is not.

3% green means 97% filthy.

[–]Chop_Chop 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You seem to be confused about H2 and renewable energy.

Here's a video that may help:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9117XqRG54

And here's the "Father of EV's" in China. Do you imagine that you know as much as Wan Gang about electric vehicles and hydrogen?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZsjcEDOQ3A

[–]bobbobbybob 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm not confused at all.

The 3% figure comes from the very article you posted. The numbers on NZ's grid requirements if we ditched diesel and petrol come from government figures.

H2 is simply a store of potential energy, and requires energy to create. its a lossy process so inherently less efficient than burning pre-potentialised octane, but still heaps better than batteries.

You don't seem to be able to disentangle H2 and 'green' in your mind. You will forever be foolish if you can't separate the two and understand the true role of H2.

Doubling the electrickery requirements of a nation's energy supply is an immense task. replacing with 'renewables' that are anything other than geothermal, nuclear or hydro means that the supply becomes increasingly unstable, subject to massive undersupply in the case of storms (cf. south australia's repeated blackouts last year after they'd taken their coal powered backup offline).

So you either have to build conventional power sources that match the renewables in output then not use them efficiently, which is a net loss to pollution, or you have to build huge amounts of lossy and/or dirty storage. (cf. lakes of death in China associated with battery tech)

Do you think you can crack enough water to provide H2 to power electricity gen to match a doubled grid when the solar and wind goes down? Because that means you now need to have 2.5 - 3x the peak supply that we currently have.], plus H2 powered generating infrastructure that sits idle most of the time. Might be more efficient to push water uphill, at least that's not an explosion risk. And we are talking about immense H2 storage to buffer the grid.

H2 is great. It isn't green, its neutral at best.

[–]Chop_Chop 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You don't seem to be able to disentangle H2 and 'green' in your mind. You will forever be foolish if you can't separate the two and understand the true role of H2.

Rubbish, piled on rubbish. I'm pretty sure I understand the "true" role of H2 after studying the industry for the last 5 years.

Do you think you can crack enough water to provide H2 to power electricity gen to match a doubled grid when the solar and wind goes down? Because that means you now need to have 2.5 - 3x the peak supply that we currently have.], plus H2 powered generating infrastructure that sits idle most of the time.

All of this and more has been studied by actual professionals, which it seems you are completely unfamiliar with

International Energy Agency: The Future of Hydrogen -Seizing today’s opportunities 203 pg study, 6/2019
https://webstore.iea.org/the-future-of-hydrogen
(Free reg required for download)

At the request of the government of Japan under its G20 presidency, the International Energy Agency (IEA) has produced this landmark report to analyse the current state of play for hydrogen and to offer guidance on its future development.

The report finds that clean hydrogen is currently enjoying unprecedented political and business momentum, with the number of policies and projects around the world expanding rapidly. It concludes that now is the time to scale up technologies and bring down costs to allow hydrogen to become widely used. The pragmatic and actionable recommendations to governments and industry that are provided will make it possible to take full advantage of this increasing momentum.

Given a choice between an anonymous poster on the internet and IEA professionals, I'm going with the pros.

Think whatever you want about H2 and Renewable energy. Won't make even a tiny tiny difference to the Leaders in this sector- China, Japan, Korea and soon Australia