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[–]magnora7 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (43 children)

Why do we need to be doing this. I don't like this.

If you want to talk about it, fine. But why do we need to make dueling subs over this one topic. It's not helpful or good, imo.

Voat is already a hub of holocaust skepticism. If we don't want to become voat, why are we echoing the types of conversations they have?

Again, I don't mind talking about it reasonably, but I REALLY do not see the need to be creating entire subs about this. It's putting saidit in a dangerous position, as new users go "Oh this is a right-wing site that hates jews" and when we are constantly posting about this topic, it only fuels that hatred. This is not what saidit is about.

There's already 3 posts on reddit talking about saidit and how it's becoming voat, because of the over-focus on this topic by creating subs and so on.

If you have a specific piece of evidence, great. I however do not see the value in re-treading this same vague discussion, again and again and again. This is much more harmful to saidit than it has any real-world benefit as far as I can see.

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (42 children)

The problem was the moderator of s/Holocaust was turning it into an insult of a sub.

I personally don't believe the skepticism around the holocaust. I was only helping them by making a community that hopefully will actually not be killed off by it's own creator.

I also had made sure to remove it from r/all and other things to avoid it becoming the face of saidit in any way.

I understand all your concerns and if I see the sub getting out of hand or posting false information or anything trust me I will keep it in check.

Out right harassment of Jews will not be tolerated on the sub and claims without evidence won't either.

I only made it out of concerns that u/JasonCarswell had excersized for the s/Holocaust sub I personally don't believe their claims but I see a need for their beliefs to have a proper sub for it instead of s/Holocaust which was made in a mocking manner.

[–]magnora7 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (40 children)

I just don't think it's something that needs an entire sub. You could just as easy post in a general /skepticism sub. By tying saidit with this type of discourse, this is pulling us in the direction of becoming voat, and avoiding that is one of our core mission goals.

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (38 children)

for some reason your comment ended up in spam I don't know why. But anyways

If I didn't make this sub Jasoncarswell would have made it, he even said so. I understand you think it doesn't need it's own sub but JasonCarswell felt it did, I made it so that hopefully I can make sure JasonCarswell doesn't try to make claims about it without proper basis.

While I would rather these subs not exist as you would since this sub would have been made either way I felt that why not make it actually proper discussion of the topic instead of just treating it like truth and fact like JasonCarswell would have. In fact I intend this to allow both sides of discussion so it won't be one sided like Voat.

This is more for debate of the topic.

I made this sub only because I feel since it would have happened either way maybe I could have kept it from going downhill and make sure fair discussion can stay instead of treating "Holocaust never happened" as truth like JasonCarswell most likely would have.

[–]magnora7 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (36 children)

Fine, but I would suggest just letting this sub die off and not posting things in it, if we really want saidit to not be voat. There really does not need to be a community built around this topic. People should go to voat if that's what they want.

[–]Jesus 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Please just take a look. These are real skeptics. Watch Germar Rudolf's Probing the Holocaust documentary on that website. Just take the time to watch it. Revisionism does not advoate National Socialism or whitewash their crimes. They know Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, and work shy people were taken to camps. There was executions, many died from starvation, and disease at the end of the war. Skeptics, do not deny these things. However, they do question the gass chamber marratives and mass graves of bodies from cremation. And rightfully so, everything should be questioned. Lots of attrocity propganda was broadcasted by the US and Soviet media after the war. Most of it turned out to be false.

You'll see that these people are not Nazis, nor do they exclaim that no Jew died and that Nazis were saints. They outright ban people like that. Facts and good arguments and discussions are allowed there and I think you'll understand this when you look through the forums and watch the documentary.

This isn't voat retoric.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A+++ That's what I'm saying! That's what I'm trying to say!

[–]Jesus 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

Why? Revisionism does not meam denying the holocaust out right. Even the term holocaust makes little sense? Death through fire by sacrafice? I would go on to castle hill publisher forums and you'll see that holocaust skepticism is not voat retoric, much of it is well placed in facts and in fact, revisionism sucessfully lowered the Aushwitz deaths from 4.5 million to just over a million mostly due to starvation and disease at the very end of the war. The idea of revisionism isn't a hate for Jews, but for Truth. I think maybe a sub dedicated historical revisionism is a great thing, aslong as it is civil. Who cares what the media thinks, revisionism is not racist and is not denial. Many of the prominent skeptics who have delved into this topic have been what the media calls self-loathing Jews.

Magnora, if people follow the phramid of debate. Revisionism should not be censored. You'll find that much of what we've been taught concerning the germans and thr camps is patently false. That isn't to say Jews were not executed or taken from their homes. But even this subject, despite its controversy should be made available.

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Our mission goal is not to become voat. If this site becomes obsessed with the holocaust, then we become voat. I don't mind a few posts, but a whole sub is overkill, especially 2 subs

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Did you look through the forum and its rules? Nothing in that forum suggests voat retoric. Revisionism is a major subject and deserves a sub. We all wake up in our own little ways. I think if mods were to implement such rules for that sub, it would effectively erase fallacious material.

You say that you do not want to turn into voat. Well are the forums I linked anything like voat? Or is it just the topic your concerned about?

[–]magnora7 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Have you seen the front page of voat? Are you aware of what it is we're trying to avoid looking like?

Like I've said before, I don't mind a bit of discussion, but creating dueling subs about this is something that ruined voat and I don't want us to get ruined the same way. We just had someone create 10 accounts and upvote themselves and spammed about 10 articles related to only the holocaust. It's a subject that's been beaten to death and I'm fine discussing it, but there is no reason for it to become a singular focal point of saidit. If people want that kind of focus on that one issue, then go to voat.

If this site becomes exactly like voat, then why would anyone come here?

If every link on the front page says "holohoax" then who is that going to convince? It's just going to be preaching to the choir. It just doesn't make sense to let our site get ruined this way

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have and it looks nothing like the revisionist forum I linked. I see what you mean. Well, what other duel subs are their concerning revisionism? If anything, could you not hide a sub like holocaust revisionisn from /s/all?

We just had someone create 10 accounts and upvote themselves and spammed about 10 articles related to only the holocaust. It's a subject that's been beaten to death and I'm fine discussing it, but there is no reason for it to become a singular focal point of saidit. If people want that kind of focus on that one issue, then go to voat. If this site becomes exactly like voat, then why would anyone come here? If every link on the front page says "holohoax" then who is that going to convince? It's just going to be preaching to the choir. It just doesn't make sense to let our site get ruined this way

I agree with you 100%. Didn't know shills came on here to post holohoax fallacies.

In the forum I linked your not able to post holohoax or any fallacious material of any kind. Voat is a honeypot for ad hominems, fallacies and one liners.

The forum I linked is rather acedemic and quite civil, unlike voat. Somehow Voat hasn't hijacked that forum yet, which leads me to believe they are pretty ban heavy when it comes to trolls, shills, bait posts, and any comments that do not bring to the table well thought out arguments or reasonable questions.

There are examples throughout the linked forum illustrating how they treat newcomers and those who are avidly against revisionism. Again, all the discussions are very civil. And each side can bring up valid points.

Understand, that I too do not want saidit to turn into voat, but voat isn't really academic revisionism but rather a honeypot forum. Increased censorship is now upon us and we should expect even more draconian measures, revisionism is being censored everywhere. The point is, the racist stuff you see on voat is designed to be inflammatory and serves as an example of the Hegelian dialectic. Nowhere on the castle hill forums I linked do we see this.

I suppose it is inevitable knowing that "Holocaust" Revisionism is reaching more and more people everyday.

The honeypot operations and shills espousing racist one liners is indeed coordinated. It illustrates that there are no rational responses to Revisionist research and activism.

The aptly labelled Usual Enemies of Free Speech will do whatever they deem necessary to protect the lies which serve their profitable political interests. Truth and especially OPEN discussion is simply irrelevant to them. They'd rather infiltrate and play the controlled opposition.

Below is where free speech on the holocaust is illegal in Europe under any circumstances, violators go to prison for Thought Crimes. This is the ONLY genocide which has this seal of approval.

In all western countries, persecution, harassment, violent attacks & threats are the order of the day against those who engage in free speech about the impossible claims within it.

Those are obvious admissions that the story doesn't stand up to scientific, logical, & rational scrutiny but discussing it in an open and civil debate is not allowed.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


/s/AlternativeHistory is often used synonymously with Historical Revisionism, though the later often has negative connotations pushed by the mainstream.

Once you start looking you'll often find a LOT of parallels with 9/11.

It's a very deep and disturbing rabbit hole with countless tributaries across many many generations often needing far reaching historical context.

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Comment ended up in spam again, I think I need to check the automod rules.

And I couldn't agree more, although I know Jason most likely won't let it die off but I do agree with all that you've stated.

But since it most likely won't die at least I can try to keep the conversation dual sided instead of just right wing like Voat mainly is.

I will try to let this sub come to it's natural death hopefully that won't be long. Heck I might just make it redirect to a general skepticism sub once it naturally calms down as that would be killing it but not making it a straight up killing of the sub.

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (11 children)

Yeah that sounds like a good plan.

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Trust me I understand your many concerns and I have seen what you mean with people trying to turn this into Voat and I don't want it either.

Also I think something is wrong with the Spam Filter. It has added your comments to Spam 3 times I keep having to approve them manually. I checked and it isn't automod or anything it seems.

Edit: I think I fixed the spam filter problem but reply to this just so I can check.

[–]magnora7 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Good I'm glad you see where I'm coming from. This is something I take very seriously.

The spam filter is probably in the sub settings, not the automod. You probably have some filter set to 'high' instead of 'off' would be my guess

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I understand how seriously you take it.

Although no offence wanting less subs of this type could be considered censorship by some people cough Jason carswell cough but I see the point in avoiding seeming to much like Voat.

And yeah it was the spam filter, I had meant to set posts and links but accidentally also set it for comments.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I really don't know why you guys are dividing it into left-right.

I see it as a true vs propaganda issue.

There is some truth to Climate Change just as elements of the Holocaust are true.

These two examples happen to be rejected by many on the right.

I am a anarcho-center-lefty but I won't buy into them for that reason.

I also won't buy into the idea that Socialism or gun regulation is evil.

I'm not on board for killing the /s/HolocaustSkepticism sub, ever.

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I won't kill it, worst I will do is make it redirect to a more general skepticism sub.

[–]JasonCarswell 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's effectively the same thing.

[–]Jesus 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Take a look at the rules there, pretty strict and not in any forum have I seen ad hominems:

f you post a quote or link from or to a book, a news article, magazine story, another website, etc., you must also comment on the quote or the link content. Tell the forum what you find wrong, compelling, unique, or important about the quote or link content. Flippant, overly brief comments are not acceptable. We want commentary and discussion.

Seriously, it is strict there but it allows for newcomers to ask questions and get answers. Instead of clack bait and spam posts. Everyone who posts must present their argument.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Those are fantastic!

Thanks for that!

I was open to jokes and memes but I guess playing it safer is easier than a slippery slope. I hadn't even started considering rules yet. Those rules have been well thought out.

What do you guys think of those rules /u/magnora7 and /u/OmegaUser296 ?

[–]magnora7 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I think you need to stop acting like you're some kind of administrator who has a say about the rules.

[–]JasonCarswell 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I'm not. But if I'm going to co-moderate the /s/HolocaustSkepticism sub then I do have a say about it's rules.

As a user I have the same say as all the other folks about the rules too. We can discuss developments, but ultimately bow to your leadership, or leave.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

To be clear, I'm not going to pile junk into /s/HolocaustSkepticism. I currently have only 4 things in a standby folder for its eventuality.

I'll also be very happy of it's existence to be more precise about it's topical content - rather than posting in the vague /s/AlternativeHistory, /s/History, /s/Israel, /s/Jews, /s/Judaism, /s/USIsrael, etc. or even /s/TheHolocaust which may or may not be for the "official" narrative.

I don't seek the topic out but I don't shy away either.

Also, I'm not about building subsaidit communities. I'd rather SaidIt be a whole community that divided cliques.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I want you to stop creating so many subs. You collect these little communities like baseball cards, and it comes across like a power grab. Not a good look. Tone it down.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

First, I've done nothing wrong so there's nothing about power, much less abuse there. I make the baseball cards at the top. I consider the subs as subjects/topics not communities, divisive cliques, teams, or tribes and prefer to think of SaidIt as a whole. I'm not saying you should, but you could consider driving that way. Maybe there's good Reddit reasons why not. Or maybe Reddit is enough reason to try to be different. Maybe SaidIt at large might come up with something better.

I can't remember if I expressed my sub-cleanup-revamp concept to you before my power went out. If you like I could redraft it and pitch the radical revamp to the populace in /s/IdeasForSaidIt to see how they feel about organizing. I could even draft it in a wiki for your feedback and approval to avoid my clumbsiness. You might like it or hate it or meh it.

Not a good look to Redditors who don't know any better. YOU can foster a different culture than Reddit if you take charge on some things and make that culture better - more than just a pyramid. Or just be compared in all things.

Second, I didn't create all of them. I was just invited to 5 more. If you want I will un-mod myself and ask all those guys to re-mod me when I have a finished CSS and a finished pile of banners ready - only to eject right after. I can also eject from all the ones with d3rr. And you can accept several of the invitations, nearly if not all of them, and take them off my shoulders. I can ask for them back for a bit to apply my banners and CSS.

Or if it suits you, I can make a proxy the mod of them, though with my design folks will know. It can be a user of yours or I have that batch or someone can make a new one.

There are still good subs to be made. It would be nice to have a banner for every sub out there that wants one, but I don't want to do all of them (or I would have posted it), but thought it nice for the ones I had, then had access to, and now I'm backlogged, on pause, until my monitor is fixed. I don't need to mod them. I don't even need to make them. But I will want some new topics to post in. I could ask you or d3rr once a week, alternating. d3rr has lots of countries so a few more like Brazil, Russia, and SaudiArabia won't seem out of place. And I could ask you to make Illuminati, Singularity, Borders (I have significant sidebar notes for these), - or good stuff like GreenParty, Solutions, VintageRetroTech, and WorkerCoops. And I'll make Animation, CGI_VFX, Screenwriting, and VintagePinUps when you let me out of detention.

[–]magnora7 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I've done nothing wrong so there's nothing about power,

See. Again you cannot accept ANY responsibility for your actions.

You need to change your behavior or you are banned. Full stop.

Our mission goal is to avoid become voat and reddit, and you are the biggest cause of failure in that direction right now.

I want you to stop creating subs, and stop being mod of more subs. You are trying to be a "powermod" which is a mod who tries to take over the site by controlling too many subs. This is one thing that ruined reddit. So stop it if you want us to believe you are acting in good faith.

I don't think you understand the seriousness of this. You need to change your behavior. Now.

[–]OmegaUser296[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

2 worst Examples of Reddits Powermods or similar situations.

Gallowboob and N8thegr8

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I appreciate your motives. I did the same with /s/WatchPeopleDie. I was hoping we'd be able to apply warnings site wide like the banner I designed for it - or maybe cautionary CSS. I handed that sub over and have had no interest in looking at any of it. I've only commented in the intro post. Here's my big folly of it all - I thought I was doing something to change Reddit culture for SaidIt. Turns out no one on SaidIt gave a shit about big warning signs for NSFW content. They were accustomed to the Reddit way (of which I knew little).

I have no intentions of making any claims about the Holocaust. I wasn't there. Neither were any of us. I only have intentions of posting content from external sources and commenting on them and on the nature of propaganda, lies, and our manufactured culture of exploitation and war for flimsy lame reasons.

Also, I will point out that history is written by the victors (vae victis) and will demonize the enemy and ignore their own war crime atrocities (Dresden Firestorm) and note the absurd claims that Germany was trying to take over the world. It's as absurd as saying Iran is a threat.

To be clear, just because Hitler was the underdog and scapegoat doesn't mean I would follow him any more than any other world leader. They're all scum.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

We have /s/ClimateSkepticism and /s/VaccineSkepticism too. It should be no different except we may have a tougher defense play.

The skepticism has ample legitimate grounds.

[–]JasonCarswell 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)


As a habit, I always invite /u/magnora7 and /u/d3rr to be co-mods. I don't think M7 has ever accepted. D3 had for a while. So for this sub especially I would recommend it too.