A step in the right direction, where actual women get the protection they need, and trans people get what they need. India points to the way forward!

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[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (17 children)

That doesn't seem like a good solution overall. The term "actual women" could be seen as bigoted by some.

Plus it doesn't account for the differences between transsexuals and transgender. Transsexuals (postops, and preops who want to be postops) tend to feel they are already the other gender completely and just want to make their lifestyle and body match. So they support the gender binary, and some are even homophobic, right-wing, fundamentalist Christians, etc.

Transgender is more of a political label and social construct that applies to ANYTHING that could be perceived as gender variance, and transsexuals as a whole did not ask to be included. So transgender would include crossdressers, drag queens, non-ops, neo-genderists, non-binary, and those who say "I'm a woman with a penis -- why should I cut it off, you can be a woman with a penis!"

So can you imagine the harm that would happen to actual transsexuals who have known all their life, and either have surgery or will never feel complete until after surgery if they were lumped in with sexually-active men who choose to wear dresses for no real good reason? It will end up the same as what lesbians gripe about with the coercive sex by "women with penises" who want to dismantle their lives or get them canceled for not agreeing to have sex with them.

The sad thing the above tells you is that there is really no fair way to do this. If we make legal and social distinctions between transsexuals who want to transition completely (which includes eventual surgery), who fully identify as the other sex (and not non-binary, "gender variant," etc.) and the rest, which is not PC either, then some of the "rest" will lie to get in. Back to discussing India, they already have a problem with con artists and rapists pretending to be Hijrah, and the majority of those don't even go through the Hijrah ceremony (ritual surgery).

The issue above is similar to other debates. I am pro-life, though, to be honest, I can support abortion if it is only used for reasons such as rape, incest, harm to the mother, or severe deformity of the fetus. But once you limit it to those things, others will lie and say they were raped just to get an abortion. Or like what transsexuals faced before the Transgender Explosion of 2000. The Johns Hopkins study concluded that surgery did not have significant benefits. Yeah, but most of the patients didn't have transsexualism. They were transgender and may benefit from dressing as the other sex, but they didn't have transsexualism. A number were just self-hating men who really didn't want to be women either, but felt society left them no choice.

Or consider the diagnosis criteria for transsexualism in the past. The criteria took social role into account, and that's why the standards varied. Just living as the other sex and expressing discomfort living as a man was enough to qualify males, but females not only had to do that but also express the wish to have a penis. That neglected the possibility of the mess we have now, but I can see the reasoning. There was so much anti-gay sentiment that someone would have to be really serious about thinking they were the other sex if they'd risk shame, humiliation, public ridicule, and violence. Women were also mistreated a lot, so doctors added stating a desire to have a penis to make sure women were not trying to be men to escape discrimination. That's like the "Catch-22" thing in the original usage, where you'd have to be insane to want to fight in Vietnam, so if you say you're crazy to avoid fighting a war, then that is actually a mark of sanity. So a woman trying to be a man to escape persecution shows that she likely doesn't have transsexualism. Society is sick, not her for seeking refuge. You can't perform surgery on one person to cure others.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (16 children)

anything could be seen as bigoted by some, but accepting the accusation uncritically leads people to be neurotics.

I don't know if it addresses the differences between transexuals and transgenders, it seems to only address transgender. I don't know why it matters. It addresses transgenders who need shelters. We know trans people have different needs, and that transwomen have different needs than actual women, so this solution address those needs. That it avoids feeding into the desires of those with autogynephilia also seems on point because the goal is SHELTER not larping. For example, if you need 500 channels on your tv then you do not need shelter but instead you need a house or apartment and an ability to get your cable bill paid for, or just internet access if you're not old.

The term actual women is the best term available, and any other term I've seen used is very biased and bigoted and filled with presumptions about the attitudes and behaviors actual women as a contrast with what you might call other kinds of women.

As for the rest of your comment, it's all irrelevant. Happy Thanksgiving!

[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

Transsexual women have needs closer to regular women, transgenders, not so much. That is why transsexual folks take great pains to try to hide their condition, to give others the luxury of not knowing and being treated the same. Most who call themselves transgender never get the surgery and are all "out and proud."

I don't see any of what I said as irrelevant though. We shouldn't let the men who claim to be transgender do the same things to MtF transsexual women that they do other women. A person who fully conforms to (or at least is fully committed to trying) a natal female in personality, needs, thought strategies, etc., and feels their body is an error, they are not the same as men in drag lying and pretending to be women for sexually-motivated, delusional, trivial, or criminal reasons.

If we don't want what some may consider "live penis monsters" in with natal women, and that is a noble goal, then I don't see why we should subject TS women who attempt to fit into mainstream living, who are not activists, who don't necessarily support LGBT in with that crap either.

And don't bother trying to research differences on these, since many use them interchangeably, and there seems to be a campaign to destroy TS influences in favor of TG ones.

Happy Thanksgiving to you too!

[–]Node 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

A person who fully conforms to (or at least is fully committed to trying) a natal female in personality, needs, thought strategies, etc., and feels their body is an error,

They're not female, and if caught pretending to be female out in society, should be permanently stopped.

[–]Spotted_Lady 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I never said they were. There is a huge difference from those who innocently know from age 4 that they were trapped in the wrong body, and those who lie about knowing from this early on.

My point is since TS women have personalities, natures, etc., of other women, they are harmed just as much by male-born transgenders who lie to the world every time they dress up and appropriate women of all sorts (cis and MtF TS).

I knew a preop, non-transitioned TS woman who was living in male mode and allowed the wife to batter them for so long. Had they had a male nature, they would have never put up with that, despite what they were born with. So a male-to-female who hadn't come out was battered, bullied, and gaslighted by a female partner. If they had a male nature, they likely would have been the batterer or at least left much sooner. Many women may hate men, but what they hate more than that is a "weak" man.

Anyway, I think we talked this to the end. Thank you for chatting with me. Enjoy your Thanksgiving.

[–]Node 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Agreed, and likewise. I'm fairly opinionated, so thanks for your willingness to chat with a curmudgeon.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

There is a huge difference from those who innocently know from age 4 that they were trapped in the wrong body, and those who lie about knowing from this early on.

Is there? How can I measure this huge difference? Is it one huge difference, or huge differences? Are they really just presumed differences, or supposed differences, or claimed differences?

I will address what I think is the main point of your essays, or what they are missing might be a better way to describe it, in a reply to a different comment.

[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Fair questions. It is hard to measure in a quantitative sense. It is more like what the Supreme Court justice said about pornography. "I can't tell you what pornography is, but I know what it is when I see it."

There is no genetic test for this since it has more to do with how the brain has formed while in the womb. It is something you'd have to observe in a child that is young and see their patterns over a lifetime. Watch how they manage conflict, what types of play they prefer, whether they are more into skill-based games or relationship-based games, see if they make better nurturers or providers, and natural mannerisms and affect, etc.

As for TGs, generally, that would emerge more in adolescence when sexuality emerges (reemerges if you buy into Freud). Transsexualism tends to emerge more during or before the "latency" stage of childhood development.

We have to distinguish between innate stuff and more cultural stuff. TS and TG have differing philosophies here. TSs know that their nature and "core" is the "other" already. So they'd want to fix the body to match who they already are, and tend to let the cultural side fall into place naturally. TGs don't always see their identity as being at odds with their bodies and might never change that ("I can still be a woman with a penis since man and woman are arbitrary social constructs"), and they put their focus on presentation only. The activism styles and needs are different. TSs need full conformity to the other sex and see any issues in being accepted as more their own personal fault or that of their body. TGs tend to operate more as a community to themselves, don't really care about conforming ("just be yourself"), and see issues in being accepted as being society's fault. One tries to change themselves and the other tries to change everyone else.

And the above is just a rule of thumb. It's more a collection of profiles, and they must be taken with a grain of salt. The issue I see a lot in some is what I call the "potato problem." Everyone knows what an ideal potato looks like, and everyone knows what a completely rotten potato looks like. But it is harder to judge what is between. How many green spots are acceptable? What is an excessive number of "eyes?" Are tool marks allowed (like gouges from a shovel or pitchfork)? What about mild "blisters," bruises, or scrapes? So it is more of a subjective, intuitive art form than an exact science. I can usually tell the 2 apart, and others have said the same to me. I've run into transsexual folks (even those who reverted for whatever reason) who I could just feel the "girliness" oozing off of them, and I've had to refrain from wanting to stroke their hair. And then there were some that I could just read them right away, and while some of that pertains to their skill, I also notice the pattern of their voices (regardless of pitch), their demeanor, how they negotiate space (eg., "manspreading"), the topics they discuss ("I just got a new car," vs., "How is Emily, I haven't seen her, is she okay?"), the energy they give off (like defensive, belligerent, angry, territorial, detached), etc.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

So five paragraphs of you saying "I got nothing". Great. Oh, and you start with an appeal to authority. There are ways to make a clear definition of pornography, but that is a topic for the field of Aesthetics not Gender Critical Guys

[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not here to debate or persuade, merely share. So maybe I am in the wrong place, as I think I just described a more feminine strategy, and "guys" is in the sub's name. LOL.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm pointing out that you're sharing an appeal to authority. I think your lol is at your own ignorance because while this is a "guys" sub, I pointed out that the question of defining porn is not just doable but a topic of the field of aesthetics. But where are you describing a more feminine strategy? What even is a more feminine strategy? Are strategies now gendered or sexed?

[–]FlippyKing[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

I have to wonder what is motivating your comments here. The post is about a wonder thing: shelters for transgender people. If you want shelters for transsexual people, then that would be a wonderful project for you to get involved in. I don't really get a sense from what you're typing of that being what you want, but I don't know what you want. Do you want us to pretend along with men who insist they are women? But if we do that, how will that impact these shelters who serve such an oppressed but still wonderfully stunning and brave community?

What is your problem with creating a shelter for this community? Is it jealousy that there are not shelters for transexuals? You've typed so much about so many things, but little of it had anything to do with this topic really. Maybe you just need to vent and get somethings off your chest, if so I hope you have found satisfaction.

[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

This is more intellectual for now. I am about discussing and learning for learning's sake.

Transsexual women were born with a feminine neurology, nature, etc. It is self-evident from early in life (unless it is beaten out of them). It is inborn and used to be the result of mothers taking DES or other things during pregnancy. It is not the same as the political or sexually-motivated choice to become transgender and get attention or be used as an excuse to practice unsavory things.

In short, I consider transsexual women to be women and transgender "women" to be men (except for the transsexuals who were propagandized to think transgender is just the modern name for it). So transsexual women should not have to put up with men in dresses being housed with them any more than other women. Since MtF TS women have the same natures and needs as other women, and MtF TGs have needs that are closer to those of men, TS women will face just as much abuse from TGs as natal women.

I never said I had a problem with transgender folks having their own community. The problem is that it would discriminate against and out fully-transitioned transsexual women who have fully assimilated to where nobody can tell (the correct end goal for transsexualism). They would be forced to give up what they already have now in society to placate men in dresses who enjoy keeping and using intact male genitalia. Once TG shelters are set up, that will dehumanize transsexual women who are fully accepted as women and have worked hard to earn the SAME treatment as women without distinction. Each time TGs make advances, it is nearly always at the expense of TSs. TS women are women, but society is seeing that less and less because of recreational and fetish-driven TGs and the press and LGBTs ripping TSs out of the cisgendder place they've worked hard to earn and placing them in a ghetto with men in drag who would rape them if they had a chance. Once TG centers open, TSs WILL be forced to go there.

I've heard of this happening even in "accepting and affirming" churches in the US. Here was a transsexual woman who was attending a church and accepted as fully female (end goal for TSism). Then an LGBT ministry started in that same church. Then someone started a lie calling her transgender and no one treated her the same since then and she lost all respect from others in the mainstream community (the only one she cared about) overnight. She was told that she couldn't speak to the main pastor anymore and had to speak to the LGBT pastor. So she couldn't go to that church anymore without being outed since she was forced to demean herself by being with those with absolutely nothing in common with her and denied access to those with the same type of brain, nature, needs, etc., as she had.

How do you think an arbitrary woman would feel if she were told she was not like other women and had to be housed with men in drag who are statistically more likely to rape her? That is almost like taking a monkey and painting them green. The other monkeys who previously befriended them will see them as "other" and likely gang up on them and kill them. Bees react similarly if the queen were to die and a new queen were to try to replace them. That is why when beekeepers must change the queen, that they put her in a protective "cage" until the hive accepts the fact that she is there. Even rodents will kill rodents of other species. Rats will eat mice.

Transsexuals have the biological need to live as the gender they should have been all along. It is optional for anyone else. And they have the need to not be outed or have their condition known. That is just as private (HIPAA-level) as getting an abortion, medical records, having an STD, etc., and is nobody's business beyond those in an intimate physical relationship with them or a therapeutic or legal relationship. Transsexuals are the most healthy when nobody knows that they have that condition. And the transgender movement has not done anything beneficial for transsexuals, only harmed them.

And we should likely let my involvement in this topic die a natural death. I had fun chatting with you.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is more intellectual for now. I am about discussing and learning for learning's sake.

So you are taking a post about giving transgender people their own shelters and using it to be about discussing and learning for learning's sake, but you started of having a problem with the shelters-- do I have that right? You started off declaring a problem, now you're like "I'm here to share wisdom". I think you are changing the subject or moving the goal posts because your initial position is untenable.

Your contention that males who either claim or are transsexual (and I dont' think you've defined this clearly-- what a surprise? Nah, typical) are born with a feminine neurology is not self-evident, it is also untenable. How is a neurology feminine or masculine? IF, as we always have and always will, define men and women according to the potential reproductive role their genitals have, then a male you call a transsexual is still a man. Effeminate men are not women. Feminine neurology does not exist.

Transsexuals do not have any biological need to live as the GENDER??? they should have been all along-- the idea is ridiculous. Your biological needs are no different than anyone else's, male or female: eat, sleep, shelter in the forms of clothing and a home (cave, tree house, anything), drinkable water, perhaps other people to keep you sane and to pool labor. That's it. Also, you are using transsexual no differently than the term transgender is used, you're even using gender in terms of what you think a transsexual's needs are.

Good luck with all that.

[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Where did I say I have a problem with that specifically? I was saying that the problem (not mine, but one that inherently exists) is that in the past, transsexuals were seen mostly on par with cisgender. But since that community and the media has done nothing but lie and claim that TSs and TG are the same, as soon as such shelters open up, transsexual women will lose their right to stay in women's shelters, even those who previously were allowed to with no problems, all because of guys who want to play dress-up. So the TSs would be forced to stay with the guys in drag who love their penises, the sense of male power they give, and who actively use them. So TSs would be robbed of what is ideal for them and given something bastardized back. "Sorry our lost your right to be accepted and treated as a 'real woman,' but don't feel bad, you can still have rights in society as a male pervert who lives as a woman for reasons of insanity or perversion and be housed with them."

Those are the same issues that I'd have with any 3rd-sex designation. TSs who have worked hard to conform, pass, blend in, and share the values of greater society will always lose with such a proposition. Anything that sounds good in this is nearly always a Damocles sword. When TGs gain rights (not earn them, but bully society into begrudgingly giving them out of fear), transsexual folks will nearly always lose because it will cause society to see them as more "other" than less and force a new kind of segregation. I've figured that with the restroom laws in a few US states, making a federal law to require that places have 3 restrooms would be good. But, then I thought through the harm that would cause. TS women who currently use the ladies' room without consequence will likely face being outed, bullied into using the trans restroom, and perhaps face violence if they don't. Shoot, this is already bad enough where folks (the ones screaming that their lives matter) have been reported attacking TS women at places like McDonald's and other ghetto-seeming fast-food places for using the restroom that most closely matches who they are.

Women born wrongly in male bodies (transsexuals) DO have a biological need to live as the gender that matches the biology of their brain, just like natal female women. Male-born transgender folks who merely live as women for sexual, fetish, delusional or egotistical reasons don't. Transsexualism is inborn, transgender isn't. A transsexual woman's rights come inherently from the vagina and XX chromosomes that she was supposed to have been born with all along. And what "MtF" TGs think are "rights" comes from their male privilege, bullying, and intimidation. When you live a lie, the only way you can defend it is by instilling fear in others. Truth, on the other hand, needs no emotional defense.

And yeah, we should give food, clothing, and shelter to folks more likely to be sexual predators. Get them on their feet so they can harm women (TS or otherwise). /s Though yes, Jesus did say to love thy enemies, and other religious figures of other faiths have said similar. And even in war, more primitive cultures had the decency to have a ceasefire at night. That gave opponents time to eat, gather their dead, and sleep.

[–]FlippyKing[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Where did I say I have a problem with that specifically?

Why the need for "specifically"? So you can weasel out of what you've already said and make it tough to pin down what you're saying (typical "trans" bad-faith arguing and bad reasoning)

But here is where you say it specifically, in a sentence soon after your bad question.

transsexual women will lose their right to stay in women's shelters, even those who previously were allowed to with no problems, all because of guys who want to play dress-up.

So, rather than be happy that transgender people get their own shelters, you worry that you will be tossed in with them. You make the same demand they make, access to women's spaces. You could make your own shelter, for transsexuals. But no, because you make the same demand the AGPs/transgenders/transtrenders/perpetually-masturbating-porn-addicts-in-dresses make: access to women's spaces and to colonize womanhood.

Also, it is amazingly dismissive of you to say they only want to play dress up but what you want to do is not exactly the same thing, especially if you are not using sex-removing and opposite sex facsimile creating surgeries as THE defining characteristic for transsexuals. You're basically saying 'we had a good thing going until Judith Butler came a long'

Also, your use of the "cis" thing is bullshit. There is no such thing. For all but like 0.04% of the population there are only men and women, and no one measures up to any standard besides the most minimal one of what genitals one has.

[–]Spotted_Lady 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

I have no dog in the trans thing and never said I was TG or TS. I make no demands other than to NOT be included in their community.

I used cis correctly. MtF Transsexuals are a subset of cisgender women, and "MtF" transgender is simply a type of men. TS women don't want to be housed with TGs anymore than other women, and should not be forced to do so. A TS's rights come from the vagina and XX chromosomes they were supposed to be born with. MtF TGs were supposed to have their penises and live as the MEN that they are.

It is not dismissive to refer to the MtF transgender men in dresses as what they are, men in dresses and those living fetishes. MtF TSs ARE women, "MtF" transgenders are men. Transsexuals would have more rights overnight if every non-op transgender were rounded up and imprisoned.

And no, I never used actually getting the surgery as a basis, but an inherently feminine nature and the DESIRE to get the surgery based on how the brain is wired before birth. Whether they actually get surgery or not (aging and poverty are factors). I can walk into any room and tell TSs from TGs without any effort. Folks should only be allowed to transition if there is a true need there, and not simply a dress-up game, fetish, or ANY sexual motivation. A paraphilic need is not a gender identity. Desiring to dress up to appropriate women and lord over them is not a gender identity. There are only 2 valid gender identities.

Anyway, please enjoy your day. I believe we have talked this to the end.