AGP perspective: Cross-dressing feels Odd.

submitted by TRapostate from self.GenderCritical

Beyond Feminine clothing as a masturbatory aide. and this is coming from a non-dysphoric.

It's not entirely BS when they say: "i do it not just for eroticism.. i feel, free" or something similar.
i don't know what it is... but there is some kind of alternate pleasure source? it's i guess coming from some kind of sexual something, but it does feel different, for lack of a better term.

a kind of satisfaction?

maybe it's just a way to passively apply softcore pornography toward yourself? maybe the ritual of preparing for a distant reward is itself reinforcing?

I wonder if it could mean something.... most men enjoy eyecandy, is it inverted eyecandy? does it trick the brain into thinking you're in proximity to the feminine and thus trigger some other source meant to reinforce a particular behavior? as a virgin i don't have too many feelings to compare it toward i suppose.

The times i've dressed, seeing myself looking ridiculous in the mirror does seem to trigger dysphoria of a kind, perhaps just common shame.

to imagine actually looking good though. it seems to trigger a longing.. or something else.. what could it represent..

is it just the desire to experience the AGP dopamine hit?

it certainly sometimes feels like something more.

it's odd how many emotions crossdressing can stir up if you let yourself dwell on it.

if i allow myself to think of a hypothetical day where, a magic wand was waved, i got to live as a passing cross-dresser for a day. i really would want to do it even without thinking about getting off, it just seems fun. it just feels like i want to, because i want to.

i think it stems from eroticism of course, but it's not immediately obvious. it seems to be a parallel form of enjoyment. i think the transgender activists use this "sensation" often when they are trying to persuade a potential convert. the desert island test, they say: "if you're alone on a deserted island, and without ever considering sex, would you still want to dress like a woman?"

i wonder what it is..

ps: i don't dress and masturbate to myself being dressed.

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[–]Chocolatepudding 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Whatever an adult does (legally) in the privacy of their own home is fine by me. The insistence that everyone else joins in to the detriment of natal women and men, is what I object to. Especially the 'today I'm a woman, tomorrow who knows ' brigade. Don't like it

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (6 children)

I don't understand your first two sentences, nor what YOU mean by "AGP". I do not think AGP means what you think it means. Maybe you are trying to rehabilitate it, or render it meaningless or fuzzy and tough to pin down. Perhaps instead of using AGP you should say what precisely you mean. You can not separate AGP from the eroticism and the masturbatory aspects of it, even if you talking about what might be the first hints of titillation that are not clear in what they are necessarily.

"It's not entirely BS when they say: "i do it not just for eroticism.. i feel, free" or something similar."

Who are these "they" you speak of? You? AGPs? By definition AGPs do it for that. If you want to say before you can do that you have to feel free to do that, that you do not feel free to masturbate or even to be in the mood to masturbate in a conservative suit for a man while in a bank, well thank God. If some weight is taken off you in clothing that is meant for the other sex, that really says something about you and not any of the clothing you wear when you feel free or not free. You have a disordering in your mind about what clothing is supposed to do.

"i don't know what it is... but there is some kind of alternate pleasure source?"

You make a statement, but end it with a question mark. But you really are not asking a question. Of course "there is some kind of alternate pleasure source". Infinite ones. Think about what about this is pleasurable and compare it to whatever is not pleasurable about the alternative. Have you seen the IT Crowd episode where Douglass tells Moss his secret to confidence? (It's wearing women's slacks.) Figure out if it is you or the thing you find pleasurable. The put these pleasurable things in their proper place. Pleasure is not an end unto itself, and if it is not a product of something worth doing and towards some actual purpose or worthy end, then it is probably a false kind of pleasure.

"maybe it's just a way to passively apply softcore pornography toward yourself? maybe the ritual of preparing for a distant reward is itself reinforcing?"

I'm responding and typing as I read. So, I suspect yes as I mention essentially the same thing above.

You never capitalize your "i"s. Please start doing that. You must take responsibility for yourself and you must do that be being as fully behind your self as possible. You capitalize "I" for the same reason you do not crawl around in the world. Or, more accurately, you do it to fully affirm what you say as yours when you use I. And above when I ask you "who" this they you speak of are: avoid hiding yourself behind some amorphous "they" you hope are just like yourself and deal with your self and use "I".

" most men enjoy eyecandy, is it inverted eyecandy? does it trick the brain into thinking you're in proximity to the feminine and thus trigger some other source meant to reinforce a particular behavior?"

Yes, I guess. Let's deal with this in two ways: men and eye candy, and the concept of "the beautiful". Yeah, men like beautiful women. What that means differs culturally, and may differ even in specific contexts. I even mean there some women a man would call beautiful and that kind of beauty almost comes with a kind of warning tag to steer clear as it is obviously a bad fit. As much as I can acknowledge Sophia Vegararara's beauty, I fully know there is no reason on earth I should ever even imagine being with her. To say "not my type" is not even an understatement, it is just that you can tell when people want very different things in life. Above my paygrade is also true, but my point still stands.

But guys can find women beautiful and that has to be separate from guys taking that as a reason to pursue the woman. So, this part is off topic, but I read up to the virgin part in what you typed, and I think there is a lot to discuss here. But it is probably so far off topic for this forum that I ask you to post in the GC Guys forum if you are looking for tips for getting out of your confusion. Bottom line is, there are real pressures in society to make "dog eat dog" everything and every relationship. So there is pressure for you to see beautiful women as something to devour sexually even if you are a virgin. Because there is really nothing in society that directs people in general towards a higher goal, chasing every possible pleasure that crosses our path seems reasonable. It's not. In a real sense, if you are chasing such sexual desires by beating off, the "virgin" idea of being solitary and being of and unto yourself is off the table. Put the desires in their proper place and get on with what you should be doing. Since I think you are young, and I don't care if that means you are under 35 because we have a society that creates so much dependence on authority (schools, doctors, experts, even people to do our oil changes) that very few of us ever grow up and fewer still fully. Put social media in its proper place, do not follow any trends. Exercise enough, read enough things worthy of reading. Read sentence by sentence, not paragraph by paragraph or endless screed by endless screed, those are how people pull the wool over your eyes. In the same way you can't really dodge a punch that is not actually going to hit you, that instead is called flinching, you can not really affirm anything people say at a distance. Like it or not, you or I probably know truly nothing about Russia/Ukraine, the Wii Spa incident, what happened at Stonewall, or any number of things, especially if we have a poor handle on ourselves and what we know about what is around us. You have to start ordering your mind by separating out what you really do know and what you don't, what you do and what do not do, what you should do, what you need to finish, what you should not do, what you have time for and what you do not have time for.

With regard to the concept of beauty, mathematicians refer to some equations as beautiful or elegant. People anywhere can do the same with pieces of music, and paintings, and houses, or their pets or anything. Chess players can find a game or a combination or a strategy as played out on the board "beautiful" and elegant too. Elegance is a similar concept. To find another person beautiful can be similar to seeing something transcendent in them, something that transcends the mundane muck we and they are wading through in life. That we do not see it in everyone is really on ourselves, and on how we rush through life, and what we respond to (which probably has a lot to do with our experiences in life). But we really can see it in everyone, in fact there are exercises towards this end. There are ways to think it and be aware of it when we encounter someone. When you meet someone who has this as their seemingly natural way of dealing with everyone they encounter (or at least when they first encounter them) it is amazing and you really do feel the heat of that kind of light shining between them. So, put that sense of beauty in its proper place, even when that sense of beauty amounts to "holy fuck she's hot".

I just finished reading the rest, and I think I covered it all, except to say if that "day" seems fun, why does a normal day seem less fun or hopefully just differently fun? I think it has something to do with your own relationship to yourself. The "i" thing also makes me think that. I do think you are trying to rationalize or wrestle with feelings you don't to admit are sexual in their core even if you are not or when you are not near their core. You are obviously wrestling with what used to be called "the passions" ie thoughts that passively come into your mind in ways that are not under your control. There has been A LOT written about how to keep them from being distractions and what they say about us and how to direct ourselves. They will always be present in some degree. But, first realize they are not coming from you exactly anyway, and like other things I've said this about: put them in their proper place. In this case it means let them go and do not think about them once you realize your thoughts have been hijacked by nonsense (sexual nonsense, clothing nonsense, "what did he mean when he said that to me last week" nonsense, "I want a potato chip" nonsense, "Is Sophia Vergara really the kind of analogy I should be making here" nonsense, and all the rest.

[–]stunaep 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

You never capitalize your "i"s. Please start doing that. You must take responsibility for yourself and you must do that be being as fully behind your self as possible. You capitalize "I" for the same reason you do not crawl around in the world. Or, more accurately, you do it to fully affirm what you say as yours when you use I. And above when I ask you "who" this they you speak of are: avoid hiding yourself behind some amorphous "they" you hope are just like yourself and deal with your self and use "I".

Sorry but this is just insufferable. It's an internet forum post. And this guy is involved with communities of AGPs.

And I very much disagree that he shouldn't post here.

Your comment comes off as very dismissive and I find it odd that you are trying to compartmentalize here. There are fetishistic aspects but he clearly didn't develop the fetish for no reason. There are cultural influences and the way they interact with his personality is very important for understanding the condition. If we want to eradicate this condition we need to understand it, and I, for one, seek to help these people.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

What I typed is meant to be helpful. I also think the "i" thing is not something to throw away as "well, it's the internet and who has time to find the shift key?" You capitalized your I each time it came up. I'm not sure if you think his "i"s are typos, but they are always there, you didn't do it once. Small sample size? Maybe, but I think other things I see in his post are consistent with why intentional or subconscious use of "i" is a symptom of a problem.

I'm glad you think his post is on topic for this forum. I recently had a long discussion which can be found in this forum about if a discussion was on topic or not. This does not seem to deal with GC exactly, but instead it seems to deal with this guy trying to walk back what AGP is away from completely pervy crap. It's also obviously a guy issue almost exclusively, especially as he is raising it. Some participants here have had enough hearing what guys think or, worse, about guy's problems.

I really find it hard to think you think I come off as dismissive, or trying to compartmentalize here, and I find that hard if you are referring to just the quoted part or my whole comment. By bringing attention the "i" thing I am taking this beyond just what ever he's saying about women's clothing, and into him as a human. So, how is that compartmentalizing?

If I'm being dismissive, why would I be talking about this in such holistic terms? What am I dismissing, or missing? I'm really asking you this, because I do want to see this clearly and want to address it well.

I'm glad you seek to help these people. I'm sorry you think I am not. I also see your other reply to him here in this thread has been very helpful. Uhmm ... where is is, exactly? I seem to have lost track of it. Since you do find this matter on topic for the forum, perhaps you could repost your reply to him, because I can't seem to find it.

[–]TRapostate[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

i found your post to be a bit harsh, esp the beginning there... but i did get some things from it. i do think you have misinterpreted me though. i do think these feelings are ultimately stemming from an AGP drive. it's just that i think it's odd how it manifests in that particular kind of experience. i don't mean to somehow rationalize or downplay the activity, or say that it's somehow innocent on account of these subjective feelings. i just think that particular experience is interesting, and a parallel motivator, and for many i'm sure it helps to convince themselves that they have a case of latent transgenderism. i'm wondering if it's something like, for a normal man who might want say, some raunchy wallpaper for his computer. after a while he's not going to get horny from it any longer, but he just likes having it still. something like that, mixed with some other something in the brain, combines and makes an odd but powerful sensation. as if it were music for the skin.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

i do think these feelings are ultimately stemming from an AGP drive. it's just that i think it's odd how it manifests in that particular kind of experience ... i'm wondering if it's something like, for a normal man who might want say, some raunchy wallpaper for his computer. after a while he's not going to get horny from it any longer, but he just likes having it still.

I think it is insidious, and if it were something that really bothered either your rationality or your emotions you would reject it out right. So the distractions, wrongly-ordered thoughts (in that what ever thing you should be doing it is a thought that is wrongly-ordered to that purpose), "passions" as they rightly are or were called, that do linger in your mind and grow are these. Every one has them even if they: are different for each person, or change culturally, or have any other rational reason for their variation. If they didn't vary, we could deal with them much more easily the same way the problem of how to best play scales on a piano has been solved because hands and pianos don't really change.

You should probably drop the idea of a "normal man", especially that you are some how different in any useful way in this matter from a "normal man", but even without dropping that idea your assumption about him and the pin-up model computer wall paper is wrong. It, as it is the same thing under a different guise for a different person, is insidious. He will develop a tolerance to the dopamine hit he gets from seeing her photo no matter what it is. It will become a sort of default. He will want more. If he can't "upgrade" his computer wall paper to something that does titillate him then he will find that upgrade elsewhere.

It is an arc that can also be seen in the way porn has evolved. Playboy centerfolds started off topless, to some variant of full-frontal to various degrees of "grooming" and shaving so guys could see more to bleached butt-holes and more and more photo editing over the course of like 50 years, while Bob Guccione and Larry Flint "pushed the envelope further" but also had their own similar arc over time. Women in porn must do things that women in porn 30 years ago would never do. Those arcs over years or decades in magazines is the same arc just faster for each guy. It, regardless of what the specific "it" is, is insidious.

It can't be music for the skin because the skin in this context only sends information to the brain. It is the brain, not recognizing the wrongly-ordered thought for what it is, not discarding it, and not occupying itself with a thought worthy of your time. The nerve endings in the skin are only the messenger, the brain is, or you are, misinterpreting those messages.

When I read that you found my post a bit harsh, I thought "it probably was". Then I went are reread it to see what I might want to rethink or change in how I say it. I don't really think I was harsh. Maybe the subject matter is harsh. Thing is, you are not looking at this cross-dressing thing and what ever feelings you get from it from a position of authority over it. You have things you need to do, things you should be doing, and things that waste your time. You also have things your are right about and things you are wrong about. How can a bit of clothing effect how you feel just because it's designed for women? First off, women often talk about how badly clothing made for them feels and fits. How can that somehow be "right" for you? (The IT Crowd and women's slacks not withstanding as it's a joke) It says you have a disordered thought about what clothing does, or a disordered thought about yourself (along the lines of what you're spending your time or money on (I hope you're not wearing someone else's clothing in all this. Ewww. stop). It makes no sense, your brain is being fooled but you can know that and correct it. "But it feels good? So what? Regardless, you know it is also insidious and will grow into something that takes you far from what ever it is you should be spending your time on, and feeding you new rationalizations that will turn to lies soon enough.

The "i" thing though: seriously, take a step towards owning your thoughts instead of finding ways to think the sensation is some how really good, by capitalizing your "i"s into "I"s even if it seems unrelated.

[–]TRapostate[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

i do not understand what you mean honestly. i actually haven't crossdressed in years, i am just going from memory on what it felt like. i am not seeking to justify or rationalize anything. i am simply explaining an odd manifestation of experience that i agree ultimately stems from a destructive place. i do think people are confused about the sensations i am describing. and i think dismissing it in the way you are ultimately serves to hinder your understanding of this phenomena.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What am I misunderstanding? Your brain gets feelings of a different kind based on who your brain thinks the clothing was made for. I think that's pretty accurate.

[–]Lizzythelezzo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It seems to me that the whole idea of cross dressing comes from the idea that men and women have to wear different clothes, due to having a gender identity. If you let go of the idea of gender identity altogether, then clothes don't have to be gendered at all, and thus "cross dressing" is kind of a misnomer.

Obviously some clothes are tailored for female figures (e.g. bigger around the hips, bust etc) and some clothes are tailored for male figures (more straight up and down cuts, and generally somewhat larger) but other than that, I don't see clothes as being for men or women. I'm a natal woman and regularly shop from both the male and female sections in stores, and will buy men's clothes as long as they fit me. I don't see it as crossdressing - I just wear what I like. Sure, it's fun and freeing, but has no erotic vibe to me.