all 7 comments

[–]FlippyKing 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

which came first a baby or the "PC Babies" (south park reference)?

Sex did not exist before society created gender roles? What exactly is their creation myth?

Also, how did anyone think typing or speaking in the way these tweets are worded is OK? They went to school and got educated beyond both their intelligence and their ability to actually do anything.

It starts with "cis people", which must be translated as "People I think have no problem with the gendered roles expected of them". It can not speak for all such people, if any, and must project on them like they were straw men.

OK so, such people "thinking 'sex and gender are different' has set trans liberation and interrogation of bioessentialist frameworks back years" is quite a mouthful. How many years has their been an effort for "trans liberation"? Is our cartoon saying it would have been a given? What even is it? What is "trans liberation", in tangible terms? Was it such people's job, or even in their interest, to interrogate anything? No. Nor is it any normal person's concern to pursue "trans liberation", especially since it seems like just fancy-speak for rolling the clock back on women's rights. Blaming others for not fighting your fight is messed up. There's probably a word for it, but I don't know it.

Shouldn't we demand a citation, and an explanation, for "bodily sex is the gendering of the body and has a socially malleable history"? What is "bodily sex"? Is it an activity, or the reality of our sexed bodies?

I suspect the tactic employed here is to undermine the reality of sexed bodies by switching the words around. It implies there is another kind of sex besides "bodily". There isn't, but if we spoke plainly, the lies would be easier to see.

What is "the gendering of the body"? Is it saying who should hunt vs who should gather? Is it saying who should breast-feed the babies? Is it saying "this kind of body never actually seems to be able to give birth or breast feed babies? why?" Is it saying "this computer programming job is for women, no wait it pays well so men now"? The last one seems to be it, but I doubt that what our cartoon is ranting about. Some clarification is needed for the non-indoctrinated. Is the history really socially malleable? Is the history of this rewritten by society as needed? Or does society change the terms for those living in the society at the time the changes are needed by the society to maintain the order those who run the society want to maintain? More clarification is needed from our cartoon.

When it says "bodily sex" (still undefined) "cannot exist outside ..." whoa hold up, citation please. Proof please. Sexed bodies exist even when they are fetuses and when they are corpses, and they can and will exist where ever they are. "Bodily sex" makes it seems like this nonsense is plausible. It's not.

OK, but what does the cartoon think it can't exist outside of? "a society where gender structure is made relevant". What is a society? When Huns invade Rome and rape women, there were two different societies. The Huns were outside Roman society. Does the cartoon think the Huns did not know who to rape? How did "missionary position work" if there was not a recognition of sexed bodies across societies. When Europeans told Natives in Canada to hit their women to keep them in line, both sides knew what was meant. How if cartoon person is correct? Cartoon person can not be correct. Sexed bodies are recognized across societies by people regardless of their society.

The rest of the sentence is just demonstrably false. Genitalia is what defines sex, it isn't some randomly chosen aspect. This kind of thinking can not even occur to people who have toddlers understanding of bodies because toddlers breast fed*. They know what a woman is and what a man is. You can only think this way if you went to school and studied and tried to achieve and please the gate-keepers there (but were afraid of math and science, where the AGPs in those fields will hope you buy into these lies).

The next tweet is just affirming that our cartoon knows they've moved the goal post again. For years TRAs told us "sex is not gender" when we said "what is this 'trans woman' you keep talking about? I only see men here?"

This part is interesting: "the way a trans person relates to ...", so nothing I should be concerned about then, right? I'm not concerned with the way a trans person relates to anything. I'm concerned with the way I relate to it. I'm under no obligation to know or BELIEVE anything about how another person relates to anything, and vice versa (see the cartoon's use of "cis" at the start).

The last part about "historic class-state societies" and "the effects of colonialism in those without them"? Which societies were those? When Europeans first landed on Hawaii, how is it that the warrior society within Hawaiian society were all men? Do they not count? I'm pretty sure the same can be said for the Maori. Anthropology shows all societies have different sexual norms, but they knew what men and women are. It's clear from how they interacted with potential and eventual colonizers from the first contact. Cartoon person needs to provide citation for this bs.

Schools are the enemy, this cartoon person is a victim, robbed of reason which was swapped out for gibberish the kid was too stupid to recognize for what it was.

I do believe the Socratic approach of starting from a point of agreement is key, still. Our cartoon here is incoherent. Beyond that, the cartoon is saying things it must be taking on faith because much of it is not true or so ill-defined as to be useless. I think starting with trying to pin down plainly what is being said is a start. We can not discuss anything when it makes no sense. We're not Judith Butler talking to her editor (ha! talk about a job that drives you to suicide)

*edited to add, is formula to blame? or breast milk pumps? How crazy would that be if alternate ways of feeding babies reduced perceptions of sexed differences? Could it be a factor, along with all the grooming on line and indoctrination in schools and on line?

[–]cryptoterfthrow 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (3 children)

All I can say is, good on you for reading the whole thing.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've taken up the habit of trying to see how bad their arguments are. Turns out, their arguments are really really bad. My hope is that we can stop their BS in their tracks if we ever see this crap in real life. Plenty of kids in schools have to face thise bad arguments all the time. Making someone explain their bad reasoning, and hopefully people seeing bad reasoning for what it is and bad rhetorical ploys for what they are, might help others resist the BS.

We all see how bad their bs is, but specifying what is bad about it each time is a good exercise. I think it is media criticism applied to this nonsense.

[–]cryptoterfthrow 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm worried about how poorly cause and effect is being understood. Critical thinking is not being exercised or encouraged with this woke shit at all. I hope you're right.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The good thing about critical thinking, logic, and the basics of rhetoric, is that they are self-evident, and skill in them can be trained (I am not an example of that training). That is why they have to resort to ridiculous notions like "rationality is racist". This is among the most racist things I can think of. Native Americans memorized treaties upon hearing them, and understood the terms rationally and understood when the government violated the terms. It was not rationality that was was used against them to break the treaties but rationalization, bureaucratic BS, in a spirit later described as the banality of evil.

No wonder the woke were actively trying to find some kind of sophistry to justify the idea that 2 + 2 = 5 (it does not). So, how could they possibly complain about what governments did when they broke treaties? This kind of movement will lead us directly to a point where a law is just what ever a judge or prosecutor says it says. We already are there, where judges have told juries to ignore certain facts about the law as they send them out for deliberation. This is hardly woke at all, and as is so often the case it is tricking people into building their own cages around themselves. How evil this is really is profound.

They appeal to "other ways of knowing" but these do not supersede rationality. Intuition or emotions do not invalidate valid reasoning. Even the Catholic Church acknowledges that religious truths can not and do not contradict truths found in the natural world, so even those this woke nonsense really is a bad new religion, the emphasis is equally on bad, new, and religion.

Appeals to "lived experiences" should best be used to understand how to communicate, not what to validate or invalidate. Otherwise, they do privilege one point of view over another. The replace one racism for another, one sexism for a ridiculous gender-ist-ism, one set of privileges to ignore logic and solid reasoning for another. ( * long tangent below for the brave or the board)

So, I really do think we need to pick apart their bad arguments and stick to basic and obvious truths.

1) There is no such thing as "trans women". No individual is this thing they created. Sex is real, it is the only natural means of reproduction any of us have. If they find some strange anomalous person, that is not licence to reclassify everyone who wants to be reclassified, it is in fact a red herring.

2) Men and women are classified by, and only by, the reproductive function their bodies are designed to fulfill. When they say "So you want to reduce women to their genitals?" they are knowingly asking the wrong question. They are purposefully confusing the features that distinguishing reproductive function with the totality of an individual. A person can not be defined, but their attributes can be classified. A person can be what ever they are capable of being. A woman is a person who can be what ever they are capable of being, whose body has one specific function in the reproductive process. So, the one thing a woman can't do is naturally father a child, or put a legitimate pregnancy scare into another woman.

3) The one thing men can't do is naturally give birth to a child, or be put into a legitimate pregnancy scare as a woman can. These attributes rule out membership in the set of the opposite sex. Dr. Levine of the Biden administration and formerly of the state of Pennsylvania, who while there stuffed elderly people into nursing homes if they appeared to have covid, essentially signing their death warrant as nursing homes were incapable of providing care even before the deluge of patients while also putting his own mother into a hotel to save her from the fate Levine sentences others to, fathered children and therefore is a man and not a woman.

4) to call Levine a woman is to change the definition of the word so that it includes its opposite, rendering the word useless. This is essentially the "emperor's new clothes" where nakedness is redefined as clothed. The effort will remove from us the tool of syllogism.

5) They might counter "you don't know what genitals I have!" but that is not the point. This not Schrodinger's cat (which was an idea created to show how ridiculous the Copenhagen interpretation is, not to be accepted as just how it is. #TeamDeBroglieBohmForLifeBaby). Not knowing which someone has does not mean they have do not have one and only one of the two and only two possibilites-- red herrings not withstanding. Passing is in fact lying. Getting away with it does not make it right. "Hate the game not the player" does not justify cheating or lying.

6) what about the red herrings mentioned above, those extremely rare cases where proper classification is not readily observable? We do not have to classify those red herrings, but more importantly they are not relevant to the "gender" question. Most importantly, we do not have accept when they use those red herrings to reclassify themselves because they are irrelevant to the gender question.

I don't pretend to have ThomasAquinas'd this issue, but I think if team "TWain'tW" works to see the specifically bad logic and rhetorical tricks used, and to articulate the best ways to counter them, winning is easy. Who keeps score will always be a problem, but winning is easy. I also don't pretend I counter them well. I'm too verbose and given to tangents, my latest, mentioned above, is below for proof.

  • Tangential bs mentioned above for those who want to stop reading.

The idea of jealousy between the middle classes and the ruling classes is applicable. So many bad ideas flow from an idle middle class educated away from their own good, and educated:1) into a system that serves no overall greater good but the good of those a top the system, and 2) into a false sense that they deserve somethings others have but probably do not deserve. I first noticed a problem when I saw people claiming to be oppressed who I saw as pretty well off and comfortable. I realized they were not complaining about rights they did not have or problems they had, but privileges they say others had. Basically it is "I made it! I should not be experiencing these things lower people experience."

This, I think is the whole point of "allies" in the woke coalition, which is no different than it ever was when Rudolph Rocker pointed out the failings of working class and labor movements every single time they allied with the middle classes to bring about changes in society. It always prioritized middle class privileges over working class needs.

This is why so many pretty well off dudes are "in the vanguard" of this counter-revolution that erases women.

[–]Far_pianist_6738 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

So are they saying that sex is gender? Coz that's exactly what conservative people who advocates gender roles say

[–]CleverFoolOfEarth[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

No, they're saying that both are mystical wizard wheeze, which is... no, just no, sure, gender is in a way, seeing that it is a constellation of averages applying to populations rather than to individuals, but sex objectively exists.