The Transgender Debate is Over.

submitted by SnowAssMan from self.GenderCritical

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[–]BiologyIsReal 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

Hey, remember you were the one who said we were shooting ourselves in the foot by using the words sex because that is a word children don't know about. You can't blame me for finding funny how even you can't live up to your puritanical standards.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (9 children)

"The opposite sex" & "unisex" & "single-sex" & "same-sex" & "sex-characteristics" are terms in themselves which cannot be compared to using "sex" on its own to refer to the sexes – here too the word "sexes" is used as a synonym for a grammatically awkward (or even incorrect) word "genders". Terms like "unigender" don't exist, so why would it surprise you that I don't make up words that don't exist? I can't tell if you genuinely don't understand the difference, or you're just being disingenuous.

Even the DSM-V, which is a medical document, had to take time out explaining what is meant by 'sex'. Bc even among academics "sex" usually means sexual intercourse:

"The area of sex and gender is highly controversial and has led to a proliferation of terms whose meanings vary over time and within and between disciplines. An additional source of confusion is that in English "sex" connotes both male/female and sexuality. This chapter employs constructs and terms as they are widely used by clinicians from various disci­plines with specialization in this area. In this chapter, sex and sexual refer to the biological indicators of male and female (understood in the context of reproductive capacity)".

Within the DSM-V the distinction between sex & gender seems to be limited to the gender dysphoria section, bc throughout the rest of the document, at the end of every section there is a heading called "Gender-Related Diagnostic Issues", which tallies up the differences between the male & female experience/symptoms/prevalence etc. of whatever disorder is under discussion.

I don't know what sort of bubble you live in if the above surprises you, but in English, among the general public & among professionals, "sex" generally means sexual intercourse & "gender" generally refers to the sexes. Saying "sex" on its own only serves to alienate & make the message less accessible. Why else do you think Dave Chappelle translated JKR's "sex is real" Tweet to "gender is real"? Bc he knows, outside the trans vs. feminist debate, gender & sex are synonyms. And he is making jokes for regular people, not some echo-chamber that likes to believe that stipulative definitions overwrite permanent ones.

[–]BiologyIsReal 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

"The opposite sex" & "unisex" & "single-sex" & "same-sex" & "sex-characteristics" are terms in themselves which cannot be compared to using "sex" on its own to refer to the sexes

That is ridiculous. Lots of words have multiple meaning and people infer what is being used based on the context. Take the two following sentences as example:

"They were caught up having sex at the cinema restroom last night."

"There are only two sexes: male and female."

Everyone would be able to understand the fist sentence is about sexual relationships and the last one is about the biological category. Even if you left out the "male and female" part on the latter, nobody would think you are talking about intercourse. If you are filling a form and you are asked for you sex, the most logical conclusion is that you are being asked whether you are female or male, not whether you would like having sex.

Even the DSM-V, which is a medical document, had to take time out explaining what is meant by 'sex'. Bc even among academics "sex" usually means sexual intercourse:

Seriously just pick some biology textbooks and tell me what you find. Biologist Colin Wright has written a good deal about TRA's sex denialism and he has not problem saying "sex is not a spectrum", for instance.

If the people writing the DSM have the need to explain what they mean for sex is because the psychiatry stablisment has tyied themselves into knots by holding so many contradictory beliefs like "TWAW" and "TW are male, but we are not supposed to say this out loud". Or like "fetishist transvestism is a thing" and "talking about AGP is transphobic".

Why else do you think Dave Chappelle translated JKR's "sex is real" Tweet to "gender is real"? Bc he knows, outside the trans vs. feminist debate, gender & sex are synonyms. And he is making jokes for regular people, not some echo-chamber that likes to believe that stipulative definitions overwrite permanent ones.

That "translation" was unnecessary. If you read JKR's essay or her tweets, it's pretty obvious which meaning of sex she is using. Again, it's called context. And feminists are the only ones talking about sex, for goodness sake! I know you dislike the natural sciences, but you should really pick up some biology or medicine textbooks and see for yourself how they do use the word sex.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (7 children)

"Sexes" only has one meaning, so your example fails as an example. "Sex is real" is not clear, to the average person, even within context.

Dave Chappelle's translation was necessary. His show is mainstream, feminist theory is not. If you want to disseminate feminist ideas to the general public you have to first speak their language & stop living in denial & stop using exceptions as an excuse, especially since exceptions prove the rule.

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

You're being desingenous. That is not all what she said. This is the full phrase she said in reference to Maya Forstarter losing her job for thinking sex should matter more than "gender identity":

Dress however you please. Call yourself whatever you like. Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you. Live your best life in peace and security. But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real? #IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill

Keeping the full context in mind, it's easy to see what meaning of sex was intended. Really, the most confusing part for the average person is why there was any controversy over what she said and why someone lose a job over it. Her later tweets and her essay make it even clearer than she is talking about sex as a biological category.

And I don't know why you think saying "sex is real" is part of feminist theory. The reality of sex is a basic fact of life. You don't need to be a feminist to know men are not women.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I'm not being disingenuous, I'm in touch with the average person, like Chappelle is. Most people don't know the Maya Forstater backstory behind that tweet. Why do you think Chappelle made the conscious or unconscious decision to translate JKR's words from "sex is real" to "gender is real"?

Only feminists & TRAs say "sex & gender are not the same". But their actions always contradict it. If within feminism sex-roles & gender-roles are synonyms then sex & gender are synonyms within feminism. The original sentiment behind "sex & gender are different" was that gender refers to masculinity & femininity. You won't find anyone, not even feminists, who understands gender to only refer to masculinity & femininity today. So can we stop insisting that sex & gender are different, since those are empty words with no meaning behind them?

[–]BiologyIsReal 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Truth, many people, especially outside the UK, don't know about Maya Forstater backstory. However, by the moment Chappelle special was out, plenty of people around the world knew about Rowling alleged "transphobia" (even if they assume she has said worse for not bothering to read her tweets or her essay). And Chappele talked about men pretending to be "women". What else could the word sex mean under that context? Again lots of words have multiple meanings. This pretence that the word sex is so complicated that one can't tell whether the interlocutor is talking about the sexual act or the biological category sounds artificial.

So can we stop insisting that sex & gender are different, since those are empty words with no meaning behind them?

No, I won't. You're not my boss and you already know my position on this. I'm not going to repeat myself.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Again, why do you think Chappelle changed "sex is real" to "gender is real"? Does it demonstrate that outside the feminist vs. TRA bubble "gender" = "sex", or is there some other reason?

Sex may have two meanings, but so does gender. Why pretend that no one could possibly be confused by a word having two meanings, when "gender's" two meanings confuses you? You've made a point not to use the word "gender" as a result, meanwhile Chappelle is avoiding using the word "sex", bc he is talking to regular people. He wants to be taken seriously. If he had said "sex is real" to regular people they'd either laugh or be confused. Maybe you don't expect anything you say ever to reach regular people.

Either way, boycotting the word "gender" seems pretty pointless – counter-productive even. Conversely, Chappelle demonstrated that using "gender" instead of "sex" actually makes sense, if you want to comprehensively convey a GC message to regular people.

[–]BiologyIsReal 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I'm not confused by the word "gender". I avoid it because I don't want to contribute to all the ofuscating language used by transactivists.

I don't know why Chappelle said what he said. I don't follow comedians and I only heard of him because of his new "controversial" show. Also, I don't know why you think he wants to convey GC ideas just for pointing the obvious, i.e. men are not women. The world is not neatly divided into TRA and GC people.

Anyways, why would a comedian worry about people laughing at what he says? Honestly, I don't know about his political leanings, but he sounds like a lot of conservatives. They protest against political correctness just before doing one of the most PC things imaginable: saying "gender" instead of sex. The only most PC thing that conservatives do is calling a man pretending to be women "she", something that Chappelle is also guilty of.

[–]SnowAssMan[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"Gender/sex is real" is not a punchline. It's the kind of thing an audience is meant to applaud, not laugh at. Are you telling me you didn't know that?

How is it PC to say "gender" when referring to the sexes? Is it PC to say "gender reveal party" too? You're failing to recognise that regular people say "gender" to mean the same thing that you mean when you say "sex".

Anyway, since you don't know why Chappelle said "gender" when he was obviously talking about biology, then you'll just have to trust me when I say that "gender" is what regular people use as an umbrella term for the sexes.