Women's perspective on sexualized video game female characters? (Mortal Kombat, media aimed at women)

submitted by Kai_Decadence from self.GenderCritical

Hey there everyone. So I remember asking a previous question that was aimed at the women who like to play video games and was asking about what you all thought about the character Bayonetta. I figured that it would be nice to ask another question pertaining to sexualized characters in video games. I recently got into a little bit of a debate with a guy who was talking about the latest Mortal Kombat game Mortal Kombat 11 and how it was hypocritical that they changed the female characters outfits by getting rid of the highly sexualized outfits from MK9 but yet some of the male characters were still shirtless and some wearing loincloths Kotal Kahn and Shao Kahn

I tried to explain to him that the difference between the male character designs and the overly sexualized female character designs is that shirtless muscular men are not designed with the intent to be sexualized but are meant to be seen as power fantasies for men. That muscles convey strength and power and that I really didn't think that the character designer was designing them that way with the intention of sexualizing them. Sure we gay men may find it attractive but I know that we're not the target demographic. But even then, these type of male character designs still have style and some substance to their appearance. Meanwhile when we look at the outfits from Mortal Kombat 9 (whom the guy was arguing for) I don't see how a look like this or this is not just a male fantasy design and that no sane woman would wear an outfit like that if you can even call those "outfits". I was trying to argue that the outfits that the female characters were wearing in the MK11 game actually look like outfits and not stripper fantasydesigns for lack of a better word. I mean take the character Skarlet, she went from wearing something like this to this and I personally think the new look looks great and actually looks like something a woman might wear.

I did agree with him that Netherrealm studio's reasoning for the change was a copout because they said that they wanted the female character to wear more practical clothes and that isn't completely truthful because most of the female characters are still wearing high heel shoes and how the guy I was debating with mentioned that Jade's hood would just get in the way during a fight. I personally feel that it would've been better if NRS just said that they wanted to give the female characters some actual outfits and not just overly sexual costumes, that would've been more honest. The guy I was talking with mainly felt that the sexy clothing should've at least been alternates for the characters because it's wrong that after decades of the female characters wearing sexualized costumes, they now decided to change it and that the game shouldn't be catering to people who most likely weren't even fans of the game to begin with.

I actually saw a pretty good comment that a woman left on a thread that was talking about the difference in designs where another guy was saying that the MK9 outfits were "idealized femininity"

""You keep saying "idealised feminity", but that's not an ideal that women aspire to, that's the ideal that men want women to be. If you want to know what women aspire to, look at other media that are actually targeted at women (or, like, ask some women? If you know any.) Look at movies and TV shows aimed at women. Do they mostly feature women with huge boobs and asses in slutty outfits doing stripper poses at the camera? No, they don't."

And I thought that was a fair and understand argument.

And then when he (guy I was debating) was trying to explain why a lot of the female outfits from Mortal Kombat 9 can be seen as empowering, liberating, and practical ("Showing more skin means that articles of clothing won't get in the way", showing off abs is a sign of strength for women", etc.), he tried to bring up how shows and movies aimed at women do have sex appeal in them and I was trying to explain that there's a difference in the way female targeted shows handle it and how the way women handle sexuality differs from how men do it). I kinda got stumped trying to explain this but I tried using Buffy The Vampire Slayer because I know that show was very popular with women back in the day and that while the show did have some sex appeal to it, it wasn't done in a pornographic, male fantasy type of way (At least from what I remember). And he also brought up women's magazines that are targeted towards women and how some of them feature women in scantily clad clothing. He mentioned how his sisters and mother read those magazines and like that stuff. So I got stumped there even though I feel like those magazines targeted to women that feature women like that are sometimes made by men.

Anyway I wanted to ask this question here instead of a general feminist place because I know that a lot of Liberal Feminists think that dressing in scantily clad clothing is empowering and how they do it for themselves, not for male pleasure but I wanted to get a more in-depth, non-surface look at this topic subject. Again, mainly wanting to hear from women who play games though I'm open to hearing thoughts about media targeted to women and how it can differ from the way men do it. Also do you think that sexualized designs could work on a female character? Me personally, I feel like it can be done but the key thing the designer has to keep in mind is style and thought put into it. To me, a sexy female outfit is something that looks stylish and something that you could see a woman who happens to like having sex appeal in her look wear.

all 13 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]Spikygrasspod 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

"he (guy I was debating) was trying to explain why a lot of the female outfits from Mortal Kombat 9 can be seen as empowering, liberating, and practical"

I don't believe for a second that he believes this. He knows soft core porn when he sees it, and he likes it. It's not that he doesn't understand your arguments, it's that he likes the porny women's outfits and doesn't care if it affects women negatively. For an in depth critique of hyper sexualised femininity, I would recommend Sheila Jeffreys' book Beauty and Misogyny. Suffice it to say that I don't think 'empowering' is a very meaningful word in this context (exactly what kind of power are we talking about?), and I think women and girls choose sexiness because we're groomed into it and given few opportunities for achievement, respect, self respect or status that don't hinge on male sexual approval.

(I play games but mostly RPGs like the dragon age, fallout or elder scrolls series where the sex of my character doesn't affect the look very much. I wouldn't want to play a game where the women look like some pornsick male's jerkoff material)

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah see, this is the stuff I need to hear and try and engage with because I know that some women who do think overly sexualized designs are "empowering", they may not realize that they're groomed into liking it because they want to please men. An experiment I usually try to ask women who think this way is whether or not they'd wear some of these overly sexualized outfits if they were alone on a remote island with monsters that they'd have to defend themselves from (I add the monster bit to try to have these women imagine if we were in some video game fantasy world since we're talking about gamers here lol) and sometimes the point does get across that maybe just maybe they think they want to wear these outfits for themselves when they subconsciously want to do it to be seen as sexually attractive to men. And I don't shame them but I try to get them to think about it a little more so they can understand the opposing side a little more.

I don't believe for a second that he believes this. He knows soft core porn when he sees it, and he likes it. It's not that he doesn't understand your arguments, it's that he likes the porny women's outfits and doesn't care if it affects women negatively.

I think you're most likely right. When I tried to explain to him about why these outfits from MK9 are just not empowering and that I hardly see women actually genuinely praise these outfits (not unless they're professional cosplayers who get paid to model) he tried to divert attention to the fact that he grew up with only his two sisters and his mother and how they don't mind this kinda stuff and read magazines that featured sexy women on them, I kinda suspected that he still just wasn't grasping what I was saying. He was also trying to say that the empowerment comes from the fact that some of the characters like Kitana, Mileena, and Sheeva have visible abs and that it can be seen as a sign of strength but what he seemed to be ignoring was how all the female characters had like Double D-E size breasts with their butts exposed and just overall looked like pornstars. And then tried to flip it by bringing up how it's a double standard because some of the male characters were shirtless. He didn't seem to understand that shirtless male characters aren't designed to be sexy, at lrast not intentionally compared to a woman wearing an outfit like Kitana's MK9 look where it's just... What is empowering about this? or this (her alternate look from the same game It's just pornstar fodder.

(I play games but mostly RPGs like the dragon age, fallout or elder scrolls series where the sex of my character doesn't affect the look very much.

Oh cool. I'm not really into those kinds of games but I can see why they're popular. Would you say that the official female characters in those kinds of games are positive?

I wouldn't want to play a game where the women look like some pornsick male's jerkoff material.

That's perfectly understandable. But would you say that when it comes to these sexualized designs, do you think that a character could be designed as sexy without looking like a total porn fantasy character?

[–]Spikygrasspod 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

"An experiment I usually try to ask women who think this way is whether or not they'd wear some of these overly sexualized outfits if they were alone on a remote island with monsters that they'd have to defend themselves from"

Hehe. The monsters is a nice detail because we do in fact internalise our society's requirements so thoroughly that they often feel as though they're coming from ourselves. De Beauvoir talks about this in The Second Sex in her chapters on girlhood and upbringing. Girls are taught to be self conscious of themselves as an object, and receive approval for looking good. We're aware of ourselves as selves, that is, conscious beings who are the centre of our own experiences, and at the same time we're expected to see ourselves as objects for the consumption of others. We reconcile these by internalising the social requirements, the male gaze, and pretending that it comes from our selves.

A more effective line of questioning might be to ask your female acquaintances if they are okay with little girls being absolutely surrounded by incredibly sexualised media, in which women show their worth by being fuckable. Even if they have reconciled these facts with their own "preferences", they may still have empathy for younger girls. As for the dude? Just tell him you don't like pornography in your games. You don't have a double standard because you're not asking for pornified men in your games.

The women in the elder scrolls are varied: warriors, farmers, bandits, assassins, etc. They're not positive so much as just human, like the men. There are a couple of slightly sexier outfits (tavern serving maid has a low cut dress, for example) but mostly not, and nothing porny.

"would you say that when it comes to these sexualized designs, do you think that a character could be designed as sexy without looking like a total porn fantasy character?"

I'm not sure what you mean by sexy. If you mean overtly sexualised to cater to men's hard ons, then I'm not into it. Women characters should have cool, non-sexualised costumes, normal clothing based on them being people, not sex objects. Anyone who's attracted to women will still find them attractive, just as people who are attracted to men are still attracted to them even when they're fully dressed.

[–]lefterfield 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

a sexy female outfit is something that looks stylish and something that you could see a woman who happens to like having sex appeal in her look wear.

I could agree with this. I think more important than the clothes themselves is the choice behind it: Why does this character dress this way, how does it reflect their personality? If it doesn't, or if there's no thought to it, then that's just eye candy for men. I like the example of Buffy. Overall it was a good show, with a few maybe questionable episodes(for many reasons other than sexualization).

Personally what it comes down to for me is 'balance'. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with women wanting to look good or "sexy", and I don't think society will ever have identical beauty standards for men and women. I'm ok with that. What I'm not ok with is women being expected to spend hours on physical appearance, with no comparable standard for men. Or using products or wearing clothes that are actively harmful to their health. As far as video games, I think there can be some stylized designs that wouldn't necessarily reflect real life. Fantasy doesn't have to. And if the intention is campy, over-the top elements, then character designs could be a part of that, and I don't take issue with it.

But there's a lot of games that have ridiculous (female) character designs for seemingly no purpose in the game world or story telling elements. It just comes across as lazy, and is offensive for that reason in addition to the overt sexualization. I agree with you, a woman could be given a sexualized design if that is a choice made for character reasons(and explained in some manner within the story). But if every woman - and only the women - are designed that way, it's male-gaze manipulative trite.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Why does this character dress this way, how does it reflect their personality? If it doesn't, or if there's no thought to it, then that's just eye candy for men.

Exactly. I wish I brought this angle up during the debate. It's all about the "why". Why does the character wear what she does? In the case of Morrigan from Darkstalkers, I get why she would dress like that, she's a succubus and succubus use their sex appeal to lure in victims to drain the life force of. Granted Morrigan is not an evil character but still, I get why she's designed the way she is. Meanwhile as much as I like her, a character like Ivy Valentine from Soul Calibur, they don't really give an explanation about why she wears what she wears. She's an English Aristocrat who also practices alchemy so why would she be wearing a dominatrix outfit of all things? What's her reason for it? And she's also celibate. I actually do like some of her looks, mainly her look from the 5th game which was easily her best main outfit imo but yeah, that's one that always perplexed me. At least with a character like Mileena, we know why she does it. She does it because she's an assassin and wants to catch her mostly male opponents and targets off-guard to go in for the kill. Or someone like I-No from Guilty Gear, it's because she's a overly confident woman who also has a carefree nature to her (going off of her taunts and idle animations).

So yeah, sexy design with reason is the way that it should be done.

I like the example of Buffy. Overall it was a good show, with a few maybe questionable episodes(for many reasons other than sexualization).

Right. I mean it's been a minute since I've seen Buffy but going from the outfits, I don't think we ever saw a "sexy" outfit that looked porn-star level quality and I think that's the point that the guy I was debating with wasn't grasping.

Personally what it comes down to for me is 'balance'. I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with women wanting to look good or "sexy", and I don't think society will ever have identical beauty standards for men and women. I'm ok with that.

I understand and agree with this. Sexy female characters are not a big deal so long as there are sexy male characters too and I think this is where Soul Calibur and Tekken kinda do that. Emphasis on kinda because with Soul Calibur, the character Voldo is implied to be the male equivalent of Ivy and uh... I mean it's an old man in his late 60s, not be ageist but it doesn't compare to a woman in her late 20s lol. But ignoring that, I'd say that a lot of the male characters do have sex appeal as well. And same deal with Tekken.

Fantasy doesn't have to. And if the intention is campy, over-the top elements, then character designs could be a part of that, and I don't take issue with it.

So would you say that the outfits in Mortal Kombat 9 fit this?

But there's a lot of games that have ridiculous (female) character designs for seemingly no purpose in the game world or story telling elements. It just comes across as lazy, and is offensive for that reason in addition to the overt sexualization. I agree with you, a woman could be given a sexualized design if that is a choice made for character reasons(and explained in some manner within the story).

Agree 100%

But if every woman - and only the women - are designed that way, it's male-gaze manipulative trite.

And that's the issue with games like Dead or Alive and the way the women but I feel like arguing about DOA with these guys is kinda pointless because at the very least, the creator of the game made it known that the game was supposed to be wank fodder and I can at least respect his honesty even if it's demeaning. I'd rather have that then people making excuses you know?

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Agree with all of this.

Lol, those Mortal Combat 9 outfits look pretty ridiculous. I'd wager it's more about eye candy. With the Buffy example, it's also the case that the vast majority of the show is focused on the relationships between the characters. Buffy may be intended to look sexy, but most of what I remember of the show(along with most of the fanbase) are things like her killing Angel, the fight with the Mayor, various speeches that she gave, etc. So it seems the sex appeal wasn't the point, or the focus.

I'd rather have that then people making excuses you know?

For sure. I believe in free expression, so long as actual women aren't being harmed. If someone wants to make a wank fodder game, they have that right. And I always prefer people being honest about their intentions than pretending what they're doing is normal/expected. But yeah, arguing with guys that want to deny why they're interested in the game, not likely to go anywhere.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Lol, those Mortal Combat 9 outfits look pretty ridiculous. I'd wager it's more about eye candy. With the Buffy example, it's also the case that the vast majority of the show is focused on the relationships between the characters.

Exactly. It's like I mentioned above, these MK9 outfits were purely just about eye-candy/wank fodder and not much thought put into most of them. I wouldn't have been annoyed with the guy if he was just upfront about them and just said he likes looking at pornstar looking women. It'd be better than him trying to justify why they looked like that for "practicality" and "empowering" reasons lol.

But yeah, arguing with guys that want to deny why they're interested in the game, not likely to go anywhere.

Yeah you're right. When the MK11 controversy first came out years before the game came out when they revealed the character Skarlet's new look, there was an outcry of MK fanboys whinging and going "they're bringing censorship to the women" and things of that nature and some of the complaints were just so dumb and overly dramatic and the justifications for why they thought the old design method aka pornstar look was better were hilarious (and annoying). I tried to explain from a design perspective as I'm a character designer in training myself about why they most likely did this change and it was just clear they want their porn fantasy. Which okay fine, but at least be honest with it lol.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Seriously. The old version she looked like a striper or a concubine. Her new look is badass, but still sexy. Beyond the aesthetics, it makes a lot more sense for a ninja to be wearing the new costume.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. These people complain that she's wearing a Hijab (which she isn't) and saying that they're trying to bring Sharia Law to MK with her new default look but to me, she just looks like a badass assassin and actually fits the job title now. She really did look like a stripper/concubine, heck they even put her in a concubine/slave position in Shao Kahn's level here along with Kitana as well

I've heard complaints that it didn't make sense for Skarlet to wear an outfit like that because she uses Blood magic but they didn't understand that she uses the blood of her opponents for a lot of the tricks she does, not her own unless she's regenerating herself. Thankfully the hate on her redeisgn has led up since the first year the game was out but I still remember the outcry lol.

[–]Cass 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I remember the first time I saw Bayonetta and thought she was awesome.

I personally never minded the skimpy outfits for women. Maybe it's objectification, but I like to look at beautiful people, and the more naked the better. Instead of putting more clothes on female characters I want less clothes on male ones.

idk if it's empowering and I don't care. Here's a comment I recently wrote about why I dress the way I do https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/89kv/an_observation/uon2

Dude's argument was retarded.

One thing I want to add, not necessarily related. I've been learning how to draw and sketching a lot of nudes. I started to find the naked body more and more pleasing to look at. I guess my perception changed from something slightly taboo to feeling like no one is truly ugly, as long as they're naked. I've became more comfortable with my own body too.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah okay, well I know there are some women who do like sexy designs and for me, it's not so much that I don't like sexy designs because I definitely can (well as much as a gay man could lol) but I just prefer designs that actually have thought put into them you know? Like most of the outfits that the female characters wore in MK9 were just tacky and lacked creativity and style. Like at the most, the only ones that I thought looked kinda cool was Jade's because it actually had a little more stylish-ness to it what with with the incorporation of the gold detailing and parts that added beautiful cohesion to the green, the stylish boots, and the chain adornments and Sonya's because even though I feel like a black bra worn under the vest would've really completed the look, it at least had some sense of style as well. But everyone else's just looked tacky and not creative and were just sexy just to be sexy with no character or style.

Like let's take one video game's most prominently infamous sexualized female character Ivy Valentine from Soul Calibur. I personally didn't think her old outfits were that bad because they had this kinda cool factor to them and they weren't going overboard with trying to expose her breasts. But then we get her Soul Calibur 4 outfit and it's just... It's not even an outfit, it's floss (sorry I just really hate this outfit haha). Comparing that to her Soul Calibur 5 look and even her Soul Calibur 3 look (minus the white color, purple looks better on her imo), I personally feel like the 5 and 3 looks are much more creative and visually interesting compared to whatever the heck they were doing with her 4 look.

But I guess that's just me. I prefer sexy style with substance is all. And this goes for the men as well but most of the time the unintentional sexualized male characters also have style about them anyway because the men designing them are not trying to make them look sexy as they're mostly trying to make them look badass and/or powerful.

I hope all I said makes sense haha. And I'm a fellow artist as well, been drawing since I was a child and it's why I take character design so seriously because I want to be a character designer someday.

[–]puzzleskulls 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I wouldn't know if they're sexy or not. I'm not allowed to leave Skyrim. Borgakh the Steel Heart will rip me a new asshole if I look at another woman. If you know what's good for you, you stay faithful to your Orc lady.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Lol