Are CAIS male or female?

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GenderCritical)

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[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They are genetically male, socially female imo. They are the only kind of people who can claim this.

[–]HangingWithMyNothing 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

If there is no such thing as being "socially female" then no, CAIS are not "socially female" and aren't some exception that can claim they are "socially female". Intersex are either male or female. An intersex male who thinks he's a woman doesn't get to be considered a woman, or invade women's spaces.

CAIS aren't special. You don't get to make people think CAIS are female when they aren't. Unless you want to open the door to the TRAs generally wanting to be "socially female" too, because apparently all it takes to be a female is "identifying" as female, and being thought of as a female by society because of your stereotypical roles, clothing, make up, disorders and surgically mutilated body parts, am I right /s

Either count all men, even non-intersex ones who think they are women, as "socially female" or drop it and do not consider any man, even the intersex ones, "socially female" because "identity" =/= sex.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

because apparently all it takes to be a female is "identifying" as female, and being thought of as a female by society because of your stereotypical roles, clothing, make up, disorders and surgically mutilated body parts, am I right /s

Um, no. It takes a diagnosable medical condition that renders one completely, phenotypically "female" despite having male chromosomes. Something no trans male person can claim.

And I am open to other suggestions for what to call them. Since they appear to be female, are usually raised as female, in most cases have the outward biological organs of female... it's not at all the same as being trans. Even their parents and siblings are likely to consider them female. It's not about their "identity", I think it should be irrelevant what "gender" they think of themselves as - how are they "assigned" at birth? Genuinely don't know this, but I'm assuming that unless there's an obvious problem and genetic testing is done: they're identified as female. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about that, but without invoking anyone's feelings cause I don't give a shit.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I have read CAIS individuals do not have ovaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Physical

The gonads in these women are not ovaries, but instead, are testes; during the embryonic stage of development, testes form in an androgen-independent process that occurs due to the influence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

Girls with CAIS do not have a womb or ovaries

If CAIS individuals do not have ovaries, and have testes or penises instead, as said above, they are not girls, women, or female. They are boys, men or male.

They happen to "pass as" women on the outside. But they are not female.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They are genetically male, correct. If they have penises, they are 100% male, and I don't think that's even CAIS any longer.

Them not having ovaries is irrelevant. How they should be accepted socially should be based on the degree to which they resemble women, externally. If a particular individual would rather be known as male despite having some form of vagina(usually shallow or disconnected) I don't care, that's his problem. It's women's spaces that need to be kept free of men with penises or the clear appearance of being men. Really, it comes down to how a doctor 'identified(accurate in these cases)' them at birth. That is their sex, for all practical purposes.

Why are you arguing about these trivial edge cases? This has nothing to do with transgenderism.