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[–]BEB[S] 11 insightful - 4 fun11 insightful - 3 fun12 insightful - 4 fun -  (21 children)

I never thought that the fabulous, fierce women pushing back on gender ideology were naive or prone to fads, but the constant retweeting of neo-conservative propagandists Masih Alinejad, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Bari Weiss, each softening us up for a US/Israel-pushed attack on Iran, or any other country that Israel wants out of the way, makes me rethink that assumption.

I get that very few lay people understand the nuances of global politics, whereas I spent years in the thick of it for my job.

I get that many if not most GC feminists are younger than I am, often considerably younger than I am, and do not remember all the other times the US (and other countries) have started a war under the partial justification that it would better the lot of the women of the country it was about to bomb to shreds (Afghanistan, Iraq, part of the propaganda before WW I...)

I understand that most GC feminists don't remember Iraq I, much less Vietnam. And most of you haven't been in a war, while I have, and the horrors of that, and other horrors meted out to women that I witnessed firsthand, have stayed with me to this day.

But can't these amazingly smart GC feminists figure out that the women of Iran have way bigger problems than being forced to wear fucking head scarves? US sanctions are crippling the lives, and often ending the lives, of ordinary Iranians. Females, as always, are disproportionately affected.

Why have so many GC women unquestioningly embraced these neo-conservative issues/ activists instead of lobbying for say, the young girls kept in cages in Thailand, only let out to have sex with disgusting European men?

Baby girls in Africa, raped because, in some places, sex with a virgin is thought to be a cure for AIDs?

There are so many women, and groups of women, around the world who face horrors daily who could use the help of smart, passionate women like us, but instead the GC movement seems to being hijacked by neo-conservatives and the US-Israel war machine. Who will use us, I guarantee.

It's really disappointing.

[–]MarkTwainiac 19 insightful - 1 fun19 insightful - 0 fun20 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I get that very few lay people understand the nuances of global politics, whereas I spent years in the thick of it for my job.

Just because people have different views to yours doesn't mean they/we are nitwits unable to "understand the nuances of global politics." It also doesn't mean they/we don't have any experience working in international affairs or diplomacy either.

softening us up for a US/Israel-pushed attack on Iran, or any other country that Israel wants out of the way

Israel is far from the only country in the Middle East that would like to see the (Shia) Islamic Republic of Iran out of the way.

I get that many if not most GC feminists are younger than I am

I am older than you, & still I disagree with you on this.

I think that Masih Alinejad, who comes from Iran where Shia Islam is the state religion, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is from a part of Africa where Sunni Islam is the rule, have every right to speak out about Islam & the other matters they focus on. If you want to take them down, then please engage with their arguments & refute them. Coz just claiming that they are "neo conservative propagandists" who are "softening us up for a US/Israel-pushed attack on Iran, or any other country that Israel wants out of the way" is not effective or convincing.

I am also confused about your ire towards those two women because - as I pointed out in other exchanges here with you many months ago - you have repeatedly sung the praises on this sub of Abigail Shrier, a conservative American woman who is very pro-Israel. As I asked back then & you never answered, why the double standard? Why does Shrier merit you enthusiastic endorsement but Alinejad and Hirsi Ali warrant your scorn, suspicion & condemnation?

As for your statement that

the women of Iran have way bigger problems than being forced to wear fucking head scarves

I think it reflects ignorance about the extent, intent, symbolism & consequences of the forced veiling edict & other strictures put on girls & women in Iran since the country became a Shia Islamic theocracy in 1979.

Moreover, I find it ironic that American woman living in California who is ostensibly against American imperialism would see fit to publicly slag off women in Iran or of Iranian heritage for protesting "being forced to wear fucking head scarves." This comes off as very US imperialist, dictatorial & patronizing to me.

[–]Doe_aFemaleDeer 3 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

“Israel is far from the only country in the Middle East that would like to see the (Shia) Islamic Republic of Iran out of the way.”

No, Israel (which has sadly turned into a militaristic extension of the U.S. (Pentagonian) Empire) is the main country in West Asia that wants Iran “out of the way”. It’s irrelevant if it’s the “only one” on Planet Earth or not - the point is that it’s currently the main vassal of the U.S. Empire on the Asian continent against Iran. Whereas the vast majority of the (more independent) Asian continent is more neutral about Iran (with some exceptions like the Saudis who are in bed with the Colonialist U.S. Empire). I’m a mixed-race part-Asian woman, born in Asia with Muslim Sunni family. There’s no need to make this about Shia vs Sunni - Americans & Western Europeans love to “divide & conquer” Asia in this way, but in reality many big Sunni-population Muslim countries like Kazakhstan are neutral towards “Shia” Iran. My Sunni friends went to study in Tehran and had no inherent animosity towards Shias.

“I think that Masih Alinejad, who comes from Iran where Shia Islam is the state religion, and Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who is from a part of Africa where Sunni Islam is the rule, have every right to speak out about Islam & the other matters they focus on.”

Of course they can. They can “speak out” on whatever they want. However, the point is that it’s self-sabotage to condemn one’s own native country / homeland (Iran) exactly at at crisis time when one’s HOMELAND is being besieged, INVADED and even b0mbed by a foreign genocidal Army (!) (U.S. Pentagonian Empire). It’s astounding that Americans & Europeans don’t seem to notice what the war-mongering, mass-murdering U.S. Empire & its vassals are doing to West Asia. For heaven’s sake, U.S General Welsey Clark has already openly admitted that the “plan” of North American Pentagon’s (Racist, Genocidal) War against the Asian Continent is to invade & conquer 7 countries, culminating with invading oil-rich Iran (which entails North American male & female ‘soldiers-of-fortune’ b0mbing and killing Iranian women & children as “casualties of war”). True to his words, the U.S. Empire has now systematically taken actions to prepare a War Invasion against Iran. The U.S. has orchestrated an economic siege & embargo (“siege warfare”) against Iran (in order to demoralise, impoverish & exhaust Iran’s besieged population, including its women & children - which statistics show suffer the most from siege sanctions). However, that didn’t bring the desired result (Iran refused to obey the American ‘Master Race’), so the U.S. Empire started directly militarily attacking Iran (to bait Iran into a full-on War). However, those Machiavellian actions by the U.S. didn’t achieve the desired result again - Iran refused to take the bait. So now the U.S. has started to (mentally) prepare its naïve, gullible population for a bigger war strike against Iran: this includes promoting & broadcasting only & solely the negative aspects of Iranian society, and thereby vilifying West Asia (the East), portraying it as unredeemably barbaric and uncivilised as opposed to the so-called ‘comparatively more enlightened’ & ‘relatively more human-rights-loving’ Western U.S. Empire.

Recently, the U.S. even attacked & blocked Iranian news domains - in order to silence any positive or balanced information about Iran. The U.S. intentionally wants only voices like "Alinejad" to be heard. Alinejad may be sincere in her activism, however her timing is total self-sabotage, given that her entire country (incl. millions of defenceless women & children) is at the brink of being invaded AGAIN & carpet-b0mbed by pscyhopathic foreign Western-Supremacist Pentagonian Soldiers-of-Fortune. The intended result of the mass-murdering American Empire’s current info-war against Iran is not to better the lives of women here in Asia, but instead to generate a Pavlovian reflex in Americans and Europeans so that even the name “Iran” is now instinctively associated in the minds of most average Americans with “Evil”. So that when Pentagon b0mbs Iran again, Americans will be ‘conditioned’ to instinctively feel it’s somehow “justified” and will “better” the lives of “oppressed” people there. The U.S. Empire has already used this manipulative trick over and over (using local “activists”) to justify pillaging & plundering multiple Muslim countries.

Given the brewing, impending WAR situation and the existential threat that her Homeland faces from Racist North American Conquerors, Alinejad comes across as a ‘useful tool’ for the relentless, never-stopping U.S. War Machine, which has already OPENLY DECLARED that Iran is it's prime enemy and that it wants to invade Alinejad’s homeland - and will likely gleefully use people like Alinejad as justification for why 'evil' Iran needs to be 'neutralised' as a "threat" to 'superior (supremacist) American values'. The U.S. did the same sh*t with almost all Asian countries that they invade, plunder & destroy (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc) - they “focus” on some 'oppressed victim', pretend to “care” about them and then proceed to exploit that victim to justify invading and killing thousands of women as “casualties of war” (that’s how the U.S. War Machine enriches itself - through Neo-Colonialist rapacious plunder of far-away continents).

“you have repeatedly sung the praises on this sub of Abigail Shrier, a conservative American woman who is very pro-Israel. As I asked back then & you never answered, why the double standard? Why does Shrier merit you enthusiastic endorsement but Alinejad and Hirsi Ali warrant your scorn, suspicion & condemnation?”

I’m not the OP / BEB, but Westerners rape & pillage my continent and then draw such disingenuous apples-to-oranges comparisons. Abigail Shrier is exactly an AMERICAN. She has the relative luxury of talking about whatever the heck she wants - because the United States is NOT UNDER SIEGE. Her country (‘Murica) is NOT facing an imminent invasion from THE biggest & most murderous military Empire on the Planet (the U.S. will not invade itself).

Whereas Alinejad is on Twitter and therefore primarily appealing to the ‘Anglosphere’ (to U.S. / UK / Canadian readers) to condemn Iran (meanwhile it’s exactly the U.S. and its NATO vassals who have openly declared “siege warfare” against Iran and even openly admitted to a plan to INVADE & b0mb Iran (!)). So, as a mixed-Asian women with Muslim family, I’m really questioning those women’s priorities - our continet is being invaded left and right by the Pentagonian Empire, the U.S. has orchestrated a crippling, choking economic SIEGE against Iran, and yet these women are appealing to (primarily) NATO readers to … condemn Iran! I mean: JFC.

I’ll try to explain it this way: Let’s imagine for a second that e.g. Brazil decided to b0mb the United States to take over its resources. And let’s imagine while Brazilian Soldiers are b0mbing or prepping to b0mb New York City (and kill thousands of people in air raids), “activist” American women decide to “speak up” about … how American religious customs/laws are oppressing some American women (meanwhile the Brazilians are merrily dropping b0mbs on American land and threatening a “plan of invasion” of the entire United States and its cities). Would you say to those American women: “Gee, girls, of course, your timing is so great, it’s most important to talk about religious problems inside the U.S. while Brazil is freakin' B0MBING us!”. Here’s the deal: when you repel the RACIST INVADERS and get rid of the choke-like economic SIEGE, then it’s time to move on to talk about internal problems and criticise men on your own side. But when one’s country is under siege (when your survival as an independent NATION is at stake) - you focus on your country overcoming that first, as a priority. You don’t go appealing to the racist FOREIGN ENEMY to condemn your OWN people - that’s not only treasonous, that’s self-sabotage. Because the foreign enemy will just exploit that to their manipulative advantage and treat you FAR WORSE when they INVADE (psychopathic, racist American soldiers don't give a sh*t about Iranian women and their survival in a war-siege situation) - those b0mbs that they drop on your head are worse than any headscarf.

[–]ZveroboyAlina 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Iran have a law that states that they must destroy Israel as a country and boot all Jewish people out of those territories. I wonder why Israel is not happy with Iran the most?

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 16 insightful - 3 fun16 insightful - 2 fun17 insightful - 3 fun -  (13 children)

This isn't about head scarves just like the gender war is not about pronouns.

You are being disingenuous. That hijab is not just head wear. It is a symbol of their oppression and them being able to remove it is the first important step for them to get their freedom and rights back.

Just like how the "where is my name?" campaign in Afghanistan. Do Afghan women have bigger problems then have their name on documents? Yes. does not mean it is not a crucial victory for them they finally achieved.

Your post is disappointing.

[–]Houseplant 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

It’s like she’s accusing us of o ly caring about one thing. Feels the same as the whataboutisms men regularly use to complain about feminists caring about women.

Idk how someone talking about the enforced veils is preventing talk about the other issues op brings up. Op could make an informative post about the issue bothering her instead of this odd ‘I’m leaving social media!’ styled nothing-post.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes it's a weird post all around.

[–]Doe_aFemaleDeer 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

Anyone can "care" about many things. But there are priorities to be addressed. For example, when the Germans were gearing up to besiege & invade Czechoslovakia - would one 'talk about' how Czech/Slovak women are socially forced to wear long skirts, or about the fact that the Nazis are planning to invade and carpet-b0mb thousands of Czech women. Iran is being attacked by U.S. Air Force, besieged by U.S. economic sanctions and U.S. Generals have openly stated that the U.S. plans to invade & b0mb Iran (which means killing Iranian women as "casualties of war"). Guess what happens to women in countries that are invaded and b0mbed by foreign Armies.

[–]Houseplant 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Rape, murder, maiming, and living under another oppressive regime?

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

This is the gendercritical forum. I honestly thought the main concern is the TRA movement and other issues are discussed on other forums.

[–]Houseplant 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Tra are the biggest pushers of gender ideology outside of religious groups (in the west at least) and so they do make up a lot of posts here, but I’d say anything related to gendered thinking and norms has a place here.

I’d argue that the purity thing gets taken too far in most gender critical subs by some users. in cases like this where someone is going to leave because not enough people discuss the sexed issues they want discussed (without ever making posts about those issues) and others where the complaint is that we’re all too focussed on TRA and not posting enough about how cosmetics are bad or something.

Anything related to criticism of gendered objects or ideas belongs here.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Anything related to criticism of gendered objects or ideas belongs here.

I know they belong here. I was just under the impression this sub is specifically about criticising the TRA movement. It makes a lot of sense if the issues OP wants to discuss appear in another sub.

[–]Doe_aFemaleDeer 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

The "first important step" "to get their freedom and rights back" is to fight back against the crippling, racist, oppressive sanctions (a.k.a. "siege warfare") which the Imperialist, Western-Supremacist, xenophobic U.S. Empire is deploying to choke Iran (including Iranian women and their children).

People who don't understand that the U.S. Pentagonian Empire is gearing up for a MILITARY WAR against Iran (including against Iranian women and their families) has their head in the sand. U.S. General Wesley Clark has openly, publicly stated the U.S. is planning to invade & occupy oil-rich Iran (which means U.S. Air Force carpet-b0mbing and murdering Iranian women).

And the second "important step" "to get their freedom and rights back" is for Iranian women to get nuclear arms. Because without them, genocidal American men (and jingoistic, collaborating American female soldiers) will invade them soon enough (just like they already invaded & occupied Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc). Iranian women will never get their "freedom back" if their Asian Continent continues to get invaded & occupied by an Army of racist, homicidal, neo-Colonialist North Americans & Western Europeans.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

You need to stop watching american spy movies and stop visiting weird conspiracy forums.

We are talking about the real world here.

[–]Doe_aFemaleDeer 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

I grew up close to Iran. I was born in Asia and have a mixed-race family that includes Muslims (my whole paternal family) and Christians (my maternal family). I don't need to "watch American spy movies" (btw, that's a bizarre metaphor - since "American spy movies" probably always paint Americans as 'heroes'). My "real world" is growing up in an environment where U.S./UK/NATO mass-murdering invaders (from thousands of miles away, from a completely different continent) suddenly barge over to my Asian continent every few years and b0mb Muslim country after Muslim country. My "real world" is watching U.S. General Wesley Clark openly stating (in a public broadcast) that the U.S. plan is to invade 7 Muslim countries - and then watching his words come to life before my eyes. The U.S. is behaving like the freakin' 4th Reich - the new Colonialist Nazis. And they admitted to it PUBLICLY. So get your head out of the sand, we're talking about the real world here.

[–]NeedMoreCoffee 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

You expect women who are not even allowed outside without their husbands permission to "fight back against oppressive US sanctions" and get "nuclear arms"?

You are in lala land.

[–]Doe_aFemaleDeer 2 insightful - 5 fun2 insightful - 4 fun3 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

No, as far as I heard from my friend who studied in Tehran, that’s incorrect. Non-married or divorced adult women don’t need any permission, according to an updated law. Maybe the reason why you haven’t heard about this update is that Western Media is deeply Racist against the East and doesn’t want to report anything even remotely positive or improving about the Iranian Nation.

And please stop talking down to me like a condescending Western Imperialist. I'm not in "La La Land", I already told you that I'm from Asia and half of my family is Muslim. Iran used to be increasingly secular, Iranian women had back then achieved so much progress (especially in the capital & big cities) … but then male and female Racists from the Imperialist U.S. illegally intervened in their elections & backed a Fundamentalist Islamist Coup to overthrow the democratically elected SECULAR gov’t.

Western women (who are, sadly, often very casually xenophobic & racist, just like their Western male counterparts) should stop raising their sons & daughters as such Racist Warmongers. There are many WOMEN in the U.S. who merrily supported carpet-b0mbing my Asian continent of birth for decades now. And ca. 200,000 women even VOLUNTARILY “serve” in the bloody U.S. WAR MACHINE, joining in in the B0MBING of Eastern women and besieging Eastern women in an Economic blockade.

How can Iranian women achieve more “rights” when their country is constantly plunged into a State of Emergency b/c of the U.S. threatening to massacre Iranians in Air Raids (like the U.S. already did to multiple other countries, destroying them), and when Western women CLOSE THEIR EYES on the economy-crushing, hunger-causing BLOCKADE that the U.S. imposed on Iran. Women & children are the biggest victims of economic blockades.

How can Iranian women achieve “freedom” when their life-important economy is BESIEGED by Iran-hating Western Racists! If you want to help Iranian women - write to your representative to LIFT THE BLOCKADE & Trade Embargo. Some Iranians can’t even get enough medicine due to the Western Embargo! Only a NON-BESIEGED, non-b0mbed country with non-encumbered life-essential TRADE can develop enough social & economic stability for big social reforms for women.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I never thought that the fabulous, fierce women pushing back on gender ideology were naive or prone to fads

It's a mix, like any other movement. Though I honestly doubt majority of the gendercrotical population is here because they think it's trendy.

But can't these amazingly smart GC feminists figure out that the women of Iran have way bigger problems than being forced to wear fucking head scarves? US sanctions are crippling the lives, and often ending the lives, of ordinary Iranians. Females, as always, are disproportionately affected.

I honestly thought Gendercritical was specifically about the TRA movement, so it might not be that every gendercritical feminist has forgotten about the issues females in the third world face, it might be that it's just the scoping of the forums. Also, the new enemy that's closest to us in the first world has arrived as well, it decided to be "trans" and it's affecting the first world at a seemingly fast rate, so we're all instinctively concerned and unfortunately, we're forced to choose between focus on saving ourselves first or the people in the third world (just explaining the psychology).

[–]Daraincork 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

War is hell , especially for the innocent civilians bombed, shot and - lest we forget- tortured , often enough by women , sad to say. What prompted you to participate?

[–]Doe_aFemaleDeer 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

Thank you for this post. It's the cold truth. The U.S. (a.k.a. the Pentagonian Empire / Fourth Reich) and its 'Western Civilisation' / Anglo-sphere vassals/allies like the UK Elite don't give two hecks about "women's rights" in the East / in Asia (Iran) - they just desperately want an 'excuse" to b0mb Iran (and thereby kill thousands, if not millions, of Iranian women). Because there are only ca. 3 big countries in Asia that still have a spine & stand up to the Pentagonian Empire - Russia, Iran and China. That's it - almost everyone else subserviently bowed down on their knees to the Pentagonian Empire. Uncle Sam and Britain are desperately hoping for a (military & cultural) war against Iran (and provoking the latter at every opportunity) - because, after annihilating Iran, the U.S. Empire will get absolute dominance in oil-rich West Asia. The most urgent problem facing most Iranian women is indeed not "headscarfs" - but the fact that they won't have any "heads" at all when the Pentagonian Empire b0mbs them all into oblivion. And, as demonstrated time and time again, the Western-Supremacist Pentagonian Empire shows ZERO mercy to women that it air-b0mbs, in countries that it invades & occupies.

[–]ZveroboyAlina 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

US sanctions are crippling the lives, and often ending the lives, of ordinary Iranians

I thought it was authoritharian Iranian Government who ordered to shoot civilians who protests and who limits rights of women - is what crippling their lives.

US/Israel-pushed attack on Iran, or any other country that Israel wants out of the way

Reminder that Iran has a law that states that Iran must destroy Israel as a country and boot all Jewish people from those territories. I wonder if it is the reason why Israel don't like them?