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[–]LilianH 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I think they are confusing two different rules. As far as I'm aware the 5 nmo/L level is all events run by World Athletes. It was introduced in 2019 to bring the rules for trans athletes into line with the rule for intersex athletes they bought in for Caster Semenya which I believe is for that specific event range.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Yes, the WA rule for TIMs requiring T be under 5 nmol/L applies to all TIM athletes in all sports & events governed by the WA. The WA rule requiring reducing T only for middle-distance events was made specifically for XY DSD athletes like Semenya & applies only to them.

The fact that all the press is confusing the WA trans policy with its XY DSD policy just goes to show how common shoddy reporting is, & how unreliable the MSM is. The media also still constantly misrepresents the sex & medical conditions of athletes like Semenya, calling them "women with hypoandrogenism" or "female athletes who naturally produce unusually high amounts of testosterone." When they are XY with male-only DSDs whose testes produce normal amounts of testosterone for members of the male sex.

The IAAF/WA wanted to make the XY DSD rule apply to events of all distances (& type) but were forced to limit it to middle distance running ones coz they were unable to provide sufficient proof that XY DSD athletes have the same kind of advantage in sprints & long distance events as they clearly do in middle-distance ones.

It's much easier for sports authorities & scientists to show that males across the board have advantages over females in sports than it is to prove that XY DSD athletes also do. Because while XY DSD athletes are way over-represented in women's elite level sports, they still constitute a teeny tiny percentage of the population.

Now that Margaret Niyonsaba has qualified for the 5,000m at the Tokyo Olympics, WA can start gathering evidence about longer distance events.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

A big part of it was the all three of the medalists in the 800m had the same 46,XY karyotype DSD condition. That condition is supremely rarer than being transgender and displaced all female athletes that year, yet a scenario where transgender people do the same is unimaginable /s.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

all three of the medalists in the 800m had the same 46,XY karyotype DSD condition

I don't know what you mean by "the same 45, XY karyotype DSD condition" here. Karyotype means "the number and visual appearance of the chromosomes in the cell nuclei of an organism or species" (Oxford).

Semenya almost certainly has 5-ARD, an enzyme deficiency caused by a genetic mutation that in males affects development of sex organs in utero & thus is a DSD. Genes, and gene mutations, are found on chromosomes, but they do not affect the number and visual appearance of a person's chromosomes.

The other medalists in the women's 800m at the 2016 Olympics - Niyonsaba & Wambui - have said they are subject to WA's current rules for XY DSD athletes just as Semenya is coz they too have conditions that cause them to have "high testosterone" like Semenya does. Which is code for saying they too are XY with testes, male levels of T & male typical sensitivity to T (in other words, they don't have CAIS).

However, Niyonsaba & Wambui have not revealed exactly which specific XY DSDs they have - just as Semenya hasn't. We only know that Semenya's DSD is XY 5-ARD because documents of the legal proceedings have been released by the CAS, & 5-ARD is the one condition that both sides focused on.

Niyonsaba & Wambui could also have XY 5-ARD, or they could have another XY DSD that affects males very similarly, such as 17-beta-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase 3 deficiency.

That condition is supremely rarer than being transgender and displaced all female athletes that year

The kinds of XY DSDs that athletes like Semenya, Niyonsaba & Wambui have are indeed extremely rare in the general population. But in elite level women's international sports, such conditions are 140 times more common than in the general population. Which means that in elite international women's sports, there have been & still are many, many more XY DSDs athletes than males who identify as "trans."

BTW, Niyonsaba will be competing in the women's 5000m in Tokyo. Semenya is still trying to qualify for that event, but probably won't make it. Under the current rules, XY DSD athletes can compete in women's sprints and long distance events without reducing their T. T-reduction is only required if they want to compete in middle-distance events.

Meanwhile Margaret Wambui has recently publicly called for a new sports division for athletes with DSDs. Wambui really meant a division for athletes with XY DSDs, testes, male levels of T & male sensitivity to T - but he didn't say so coz of the fiction that the problem in women's sports is with DSDs generally, not with DSDs that only occur in males.

Still, Wambui deserves props for being the first XY DSD athlete I've heard of who has acknowledged, albeit indirectly, that XY persons with DSDs don't belong in women's sports. Semenya is still pressing the case that his "identity" should trump his sex, spouting lies like "I am a woman, and I am strong" & claiming that the reason many people object to Semenya competing in women's sports is not because Semenya is male, but because "I am the best, and when you are the best other people try to destroy you."

[–]usehername 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What do you do any why are you so knowledgeable about such a wide range of topics?

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

LOL, I'm old & I've always been an information omnivore. Research & writing have been what I've done professionally my whole life. But I really don't know all that much about a wide range of topics. I just know a lot about the kinds of topics that get brought up here.

Generally speaking, one of the advantages of growing old is that most people pick up a lot of information along the way. I'm just unusual in that I remember a lot of it.

[–]soundsituation[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ohhh, interesting! Yeah, Caster is an 800 meter specialist but it's not uncommon for runners to do more than one event, or move up or down in distance - and for an 800 runner the realistic alternatives would be 400 and 1500.

Thanks for the insight.