all 30 comments

[–]QueenBread 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (16 children)

Bayonetta Is a sexist character. End of discussion.

She spends her entire screen time striking up extremely sexualized poses: licking lollipops, spreading her legs, moaning, poledancing..... The entire set of sexualized poses.

And nobody is spreading her legs suggestively or poledancing FOR THEMSELVES. They do it for the audience. In Bayonetta's case, her audience is the player.

So we have a character designed to constantly gratificate sexually the player. How is that empowering?

On a side note, gay men have a strong fixation for stereotyped female characters. The more a character is over-feminized, the more they like her. Essentially, gay men love female characters who act like drag queens do.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (15 children)

I suppose if you were trying to frame it in the context of Bayonetta doing what she does in real life, it would seem pretty awkward if she fought and did the poses she did with no one else around out in public.

She spends her entire screen time striking up extremely sexualized poses: licking lollipops, spreading her legs, moaning, poledancing..... The entire set of sexualized poses.

Right. If it means anything, they did tone it down a bit in the sequel. Not by a lot but compared to the first game, it was.

And nobody is spreading her legs suggestively or poledancing FOR THEMSELVES

Fair point.

So we have a character designed to constantly gratificate sexually the player. How is that empowering?

Another fair point.

On a side note, gay men have a strong fixation for stereotyped female characters. The more a character is over-feminized, the more they like her. Essentially, gay men love female characters who act like drag queens do.

Hmm I think it depends on the gay man to be honest. I've met gay men who absolutely don't like overly feminine characters, some who don't even really think about the female characters, and then some who like you said, love over-feminized characters. Speaking for myself, I have to admit that I'm drawn to feminine characters but I also like "tomboy" characters too. I guess I just lean towards feminine characters because I'm a feminine guy and I think it's cool to see feminine characters in action. Interesting you mention Drag Queens because I'm not really all that into Drag at all. Like I'm not into RuPaul's drag race (and most the music selections are not really my thing neither lol).

[–]QueenBread 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (14 children)

You're right, of course when I say "gay men in particular like female characters who are hyper-feminine" I'm making a very simplifying and broad generalization. I've just noticed a trend of it happening. There's a moba (a videogame) called Smite which has a history of hyper-feminine sexualized female characters. Somehow, those ended up attracting more gay players than straight male players. I assumed it's like with Bayonetta: when the femininity is so clearly coded to be intentionally over the top, it may be an ideal for certain gay men who might like to look feminine? It's just an idea however. It's like when I say girls tend to like pretty boys who look boyband-ish: I'm not one of said girls, but I admit it's a very common trend.

As for Bayonetta, the thing is I would be quite fine with her, if only some people didn't start to hail her as a "feminist, empowered" character. I like how open Japan is about sexualizing stuff, and being sexy can in itself be a power fantasy too. So my problem is not with Bayonetta herself but only with those saying she's the perfect example of a feminist character.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

You're right, of course when I say "gay men in particular like female characters who are hyper-feminine" I'm making a very simplifying and broad generalization. I've just noticed a trend of it happening. There's a moba (a videogame) called Smite which has a history of hyper-feminine sexualized female characters. Somehow, those ended up attracting more gay players than straight male players. I assumed it's like with Bayonetta: when the femininity is so clearly coded to be intentionally over the top, it may be an ideal for certain gay men who might like to look feminine? It's just an idea however. It's like when I say girls tend to like pretty boys who look boyband-ish: I'm not one of said girls, but I admit it's a very common trend.

Ah okay, I get where you're coming from. I've heard of Smite and seen some of the characters and you're definitely right, a lot of the female characters are hyper feminine (though at the very least, they have sexualized male characters as well so I feel like it kinda balances it out if you know what I mean).

As for Bayonetta, the thing is I would be quite fine with her, if only some people didn't start to hail her as a "feminist, empowered" character. I like how open Japan is about sexualizing stuff, and being sexy can in itself be a power fantasy too. So my problem is not with Bayonetta herself but only with those saying she's the perfect example of a feminist character.

Ah okay, that makes a lot of sense too. I wouldn't call Bayonetta a feminist icon. I think she's a fun character but feminist? I don't know about that. Since we're on the topic, which female video game character do you think could be seen as a feminist character?

[–]QueenBread 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (12 children)

Since we're on the topic, which female video game character do you think could be seen as a feminist character?

First off, sorry it took me two weeks to reply! Hope you'll still want an answer.

So.... that question of yours is one question which makes me understand how there are still so very few female heroines that are genuinely cool.

I guess I like D'vorah from Mortal Kombat 11: https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/8/8e/Dvoraaaaaaah.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20190313145909

Here's a character who's still all about femininity (her entire theme is that she's a hive MOTHER)...... but she's not sexualized.

A better example are the playable female characters in Modern Warfare. Yes, I'm talking about the supermacho Call Of Duty! They've actually been superprogressive about their female characters now.

Look at them:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/callofduty/images/0/0a/Charly_SAS_Operator_Coalition_Beta_MW.png/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/533?cb=20190920220024

https://imgs.callofduty.com/content/dam/atvi/callofduty/cod-touchui/blog/body/bocw/BOCW-OPERATORS-04PARK.jpg

https://imgs.callofduty.com/content/dam/atvi/callofduty/cod-touchui/blog/body/bocw/BOCW-OPERATORS-11POWERS.jpg

https://www.gamesatlas.com/images/jch-optimize/ng/images_cod-modern-warfare_operators_domino-bg.webp

Frankly, I think these are how female characters should be. They're just the same as the male cast, there is no visual difference that sexualizes one but not the other.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

No problem! Well I mean there are some female characters that I do think are cool but I'm not sure if they would fit the "feminist" moniker like for example, Alice from the American McGee Alice games or Jen from Primal and Aya Brea from Parasite Eve (Though they did derail her character and sexualized her in the later games but her portrayal in the first game was pretty good).

D'Vorah

Haha okay that's an interesting choice but I do get what you mean of the combination of femininity but not in a fetishy/sexual way.

Modern Warfare Women

Yeah I can definitely see what you mean here. I don't play FPS so I wouldn't have known about these characters but I totally get it. That they portrayed these women as soldiers who are dressed in appropriate attire that doesn't highlight their breasts or butts. Compare that to something like the Final Fantasy soldiers from FF7 Dirge of Cerberus (Why is the woman wearing booty shorts and not pants like the male soldier).

So I totally get it :)

[–]QueenBread 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

All the three characters you mentioned (Mc Gee's Alice, Jen, Aya) seem fine. They're all characters who haven't lost their femininity, but aren't objectified and seem strong and badass.

On an unrelated note, sometimes for a woman being a sexy babe is like sometimes for a man being a big buff dude: it CAN be also a power fantasy, after all, because you imagine yourself as idealized and desirable.

For me, there's two reasons I dislike oversexualized female characters; the first is that, for way too long, that has been the only way a female character should be. The second is that oversexualization happens for women WAAAAAY more than for dudes. Now, I understand that by simple primal instinct, for a woman it's considered desirable to be hot, while for a man it's considered desirable to be strong. And maybe I like strong female characters because, as a woman who likes men, I like strength, so for me strength and personal agency = hot. So I end up thinking that's what makes female characters hot, as well.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Right and they are excluding Aya. Like I mentioned, she was portrayed beautifully in the first game. In the sequel she was still head strong but they put her in a really short mini skirt and even gave an unneeded shower scene. And then in third game, this is where they totally destroyed her character changing her from a tough but compassionate headstrong heroine to a timid, frightened woman who literally moans and pants in most of the scenes that have her talking. She also takes orders from men and the game has a clothing damage feature where whenever Aya takes a hit, her clothes shred and rip off becoming a tattered mess, essentially undressing her. There is a twist in the game about why she's like this but I won't spoil it. It doesn't change the fact that the character was completely ruined in one of the most disrespectful ways possible when it comes to heroines in video games. Thnakfully the fans of the series mostly agree that this was disgusting and aftermath of the game is what killed the series after the completely negative reception the third game got.

For me, there's two reasons I dislike oversexualized female characters; the first is that, for way too long, that has been the only way a female character should be. The second is that oversexualization happens for women WAAAAAY more than for dudes. Now, I understand that by simple primal instinct, for a woman it's considered desirable to be hot, while for a man it's considered desirable to be strong. And maybe I like strong female characters because, as a woman who likes men, I like strength, so for me strength and personal agency = hot. So I end up thinking that's what makes female characters hot, as well.

That all makes sense, I totally get it. About the overssexualization that the women characters get more than men, this is very true as well though in fighting games, I think that male characters can be shown in a sexy light however this is bias because I am a gay man LOL And I know that what gay men like and what women like doesn't always line up perfectly.

[–]QueenBread 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

this is very true as well though in fighting games, I think that male characters can be shown in a sexy light however this is bias because I am a gay man LOL And I know that what gay men like and what women like doesn't always line up perfectly

Aha, believe me, I know what you're talking about! I'm into fighting games also because I like them big buff muscled bodies.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Ah okay then we're on the same page lol. I mean like in Tekken for example, sure you have sexualized female characters like Anna Williams and Christie but you also have King ("Dat" bod) and Jin as well as some other guys who even though are more than likely designed to be straight men power fantasies, they could also been as sexually appealing to straight & bi women and Gay and Bi men. And there are lots of examples like this in fighting games so I feel that fighting games can be a little better when it comes to this.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

I'm really not sure. The design is more than a little ridiculous, and I've heard the game is also a bit ridiculous(in various ways), but I've never played it. The character design doesn't make me want to play the game. But I'd want more context about the character's personality, and how much the blatant sexuality is used within the game, in what ways, etc, before I'd say that she's a bad/anti-feminist character. If the player is expected to be invested in her relationship with at least one other female character(as you mention), sounds like it can't be all bad. And that there are some positive aspects of the representation.

So I guess where I come down on it is that ultra-feminine characters are not necessarily bad, and that story, personality, and player empathy for the character is a better way to evaluate it.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Well it's a little tricky. I'll be honest that the story is VERY out there, much to the point where I don't remember much of the plot from the first game. That said, in the first game the gist of what she's doing is trying to regain her memory of her past life before she was sealed away into a deep slumber for 500 years and awakens in the modern time. In this game, the way things are done are so over the top and ridiculous including Bayonetta doing flirtatious and suggestive poses. Lots of Male gaze stuff for sure but despite all this, the character herself seems to be in full control. She's very confident and oozes flamboyant charisma with some snark. When she regains her memory back, she becomes a little softer and this aspect of her character gets explored more in the sequel when her best friend Jeanne gets her soul captured from a powerful demon that results in her being put into a slumber. You get to see how much Bayonetta really cherishes her as a friend (though some fans think it's implied their feelings go deeper than that).

The game is not really to be taken serious though because the game is just full-on campy and tone, more so the first game than the second but yeah.

[–]lefterfield 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Hmm, so it sounds like the exaggerated femininity is part of the gimmick of the game. In which case... I think it's probably fine. She apparently has flaws, a personality, goals, and actual character development, which puts her ahead the vast majority of female video game/movie characters, including many "feminist" ones. I get that she's designed to appeal to the male gaze, and maybe some would take issue with that - but it's also good to have female characters that males are encouraged to empathize with. And maybe especially if they're females the men are attracted to.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

The cool thing about Bayonetta is that at least as commentary goes, the guys who talk about her don't oogle her. They actually cite how fun the character is and how they enjoy how much of a bad ass she is. They don't really dote on the fact that she goes temporarily nude during her magic spells and they pretty much like her the way they like Dante from the Devil May Cry games which makes sense since Hideki Kamiya was the one who created both series. She's just so theatrical, flamobyant, and posh but ambitious and compassionate to those she cares about.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's good :)

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Funny thing, my older brother feels put off by her, he loves his lesbian porn by the way. He feels the same way about Ivy Valentine (he told me this when I fangirl about those women). Women who can go dominatrix scare him (he told me he doesn't like dominatrixes because he doesn't like being hurt, which is true, he hates anything that can hurt him and is scared of needles for this reason), I suspect it's the whip and their love of sadism.

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

That's understandable lol. I was gonna think maybe it's because he's turned off by women who could do some physical damage to someone haha. But no, I get it.

[–]grixit 2 insightful - 2 fun2 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I've never heard of her. what game is she from?

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is the character She's from the game Bayonetta, a game that received lots of controversy when the first game came out because in the gameplay, she would sometimes get naked (while her hair covered her private areas) whenever she would cast spells (She's a witch, her outfit is made from her hair and her magic is tied to her hair).

[–][deleted] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Name of both the character and the game.

[–]grixit 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Oh, just a video game then.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I wish I can be like Bayonetta. She's not simply sexy, she's being sexy as a personality with class (not trashy desperate and submissive). She has the "you can look, but you can't touch" approach to expressing herself in her behaviour and clothes and she does whatever she wants. I'm pretty sure if she's deliberately spreading her legs in her summons, it's really her teasing and getting a kick (pun not intended) out of it because she is the type of person to tease and have fun (of course, it's also to tease the player...it just occurred to me that they were probably making her break the fourth wall in one of the scenes). Compare it to Ivy Valentine from the Soul Series (I saw some of your Youtube videos, so I know you know who I'm talking about), she's just blatant eye candy who happens to be a smart educated woman. With Bayonetta, I personally think the intention is eye candy, but also to make her a fun character and that her design is not simply like that to attract the male gaze. Hell, I sometimes wonder what percentage is the creators' thought on "appealing to the male gaze" when they created her to the thought "fun, free spirited, voluptuous woman", I wonder what discussions did they have? I would be interested to know. I love both Ivy and Bayonetta. People may not consider her a feminist icon, but isn't being "feminist" about not caring whatever societal expectations place on you? It's pretty subjective, you can look at her as full on male gaze, but when I see her, I see a woman who has things I aspire for, freedom, not a care in a world, the power to tease ANYONE in any sort of way. I suspect the unfortunate thing is that people see her as solely a male gaze thing and that how she expresses herself is the game telling people "to be strong, you got to be sexy" instead of considering that her as a potential feminist icon can suggest "it's okay to be free spirited". Look at Jeanne, she dresses much more conservative, but she's still a beautiful voluptuous woman and judging by her Bayonetta 2 dialogue (tone and action), she seems as care free as Bayonetta if her dialogue about forgetting to buy caviar from the shops in the middle of a fight is anything to go by, it seems like "ugh, crap our christmas is crappier without caviar" also when she's being a jerk on a motorcycle to Enzo (that near crotch run-over thing is not cool).

Now, considering that some feminists argue that the character was borne out of male fantasy and use that as an argument of why a female character can't be a feminist icon, we should look at why these characters are created and their context of creation. These characters were generally created to appeal to the male audience to varying levels (considering companies originally marketed video games to males) but if you look closely, do you think that should automatically disqualify them from being feminist icons? Males have been designing women as one-dimensional beings (pun not intended) and over time they started giving them personalities and backstories and some of these character development projects has lead to these female characters being strong women (whilst still appealing to the male fantasy), which nonetheless still appeal to the male fantasy. From doing this, males have also humanised women and given society a source to imprint on their subconscious, women can easily over power a man. It's no different than what a woman character designer would do (although more likely she would have a bit more of a grounded reality in what a woman would behave and dress like in her society in her character designs and development).

Edit: Wording

Edit: Grammar

[–]Kai_Decadence[S] 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Compare it to Ivy Valentine from the Soul Series (I saw some of your Youtube videos, so I know you know who I'm talking about), she's just blatant eye candy who happens to be a smart educated woman.

That's a very fair and accurate outlook. I like Ivy but in the sense that I like how in the story, she's this tragic character who's trying to free herself from her cursed blood. Her ending in SC3 always gets me. But that said, I know what she was intended for. I'm not the target demographic what with being a gay man so her design doesn't titulate me but I know that to the majority demographic, she was designed as nothing but shallow sex candy. Like they don't even give a reason why she dresses in BDSM attire whereas her alternate costumes usually have some sort of sense to them.

But I agree with you, comparing Bayonetta and Ivy, Bayonetta is not as shallow a design compared to the latter. Her design has purpose and character and despite the suggestive posing, it does feel like she is in control of herself and the whole "You can look but don't touch" is very true.

I always try to be very analytical when it comes to characters like this. It's why I said what I said about Ivy in my SC videos and mentioning what designs work and don't work for her (That Soul Calibur 4 outfit will always be one I despise lol) but with Bayonetta, I feel like she could be the embodiment of what a woman could feel like if she had unlimited power and facing the world with not a care in the world. Because Bayonetta may do some suggestive poses, it's because she knows she can and that if anyone were to mess with her, she can unleash her demonic power on them lol.

what a woman character designer would do (although more likely she would have a bit more of a grounded reality if what a woman would behave and dress like in her society in her character designs and development).

One thing that I always wanted to try asking is having women who are artists try and design what they would see as an awesome character design. I just can't think of many women in the gaming scene who are head directors who control what designs should be. I think kingdom Hearts has one? But I'm not sure. Either way, I'd like to see some women try their hand on this and then we could compare and contrast them against designs done by men.