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[–]yousaythosethings 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

Heterosexuality (which cannot be divorced from political ideology)

Like except for the fact that it definitely can be and generally is. I say that as a homosexual.

I’m not sure how you end up thinking like this unless you’re just straight and trying to convince yourself you’re into women or if you’re a clueless bisexual who assumes every gay or straight person is also secretly attracted to both sexes but with a mere preference and won’t admit it. This latter group is definitely a thing and it’s a very self-centered ignorant attitude.

Only one sex makes me wet. I choose women over men like I choose to eat chocolate cake over a pair of scissors. And I know enough people intimately to know not everyone is secretly like me. I know I’m the outlier. It’s pretty fucking obvious. I can tell the difference between a bicurious straight woman having a moment/pansexual, bisexual, and a lesbian. And it’s not just in how we choose to live. We’re wired different. Our bodies respond or do not respond to different things.

[–]SexualityCritical[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

So, there's a lot to unpack here, with what you're remarking. I think you definitely believe you're not a lesbian for political purposes, but ultimately it should be addressed why the vast majority of radical feminists aren't heterosexual, but label themselves as either lesbians or bisexual women. Obviously, it's not a coincidence.

A woman have, at any time, with or without any certain genes (which don't even exist), leave her husband, find a girlfriend, have sex with her girlfriend, masturbate to gynophilic erotica, have her vagina open up when looking at aesthetically pleasing images of women, and draw and write about erotica featuring lesbian relationships. Is anything of this not a choice?

'She's actually bisexual, and just merely expresses herself in such a way as to appear as though she's a lesbian.'

I think the issue with this sentiment would be... well, that'd it make everyone bisexual, including asexual-identified people. The reason one's genitalia moves when looking at certain images, or having certain erotica thoughts, is because a certain, ultra-specific arrangements of things, that things are the way they are, conditionally, has been met, that it subsists in this state, causing the mind to activate movement within the genitals. Hence, why non-sexual seeming things (in relation to fetishes) turn people on, that their genitalia hardens or wets. It is not the case that anything, in all of existence, is inherently erotic, but rather that its status as erotically pleasing is socially woven, and, as a result, people react to such imagery with sexual excitement. What is, and isn't, sexual differs from culture to culture. A major example is movement and behaviour from women and feminine appearing people which society classifies as sexual, but when men and masculine appearing people do it, it's not considered sexual, not seen in such a manner.

In case you're wondering, I'm a man. A man with androphilic fantasies. Could I, if I wanted to, be a heterosexual man, gynophilic? Yes, of course I could. It's not even difficult, from a sensual perspective. But, from a logical perspective, it is extremely, extremely difficult. Because liking women, in my case, but not in everyone's case, is not logical, but illogical, it harms me psychologically. Hence, why I only masturbate to fantasies involving men, and read/watch erotica featuring male relationships. If I wanted to, I could read/watch gynophilic material, and also masturbate to female-centered fantasies. But, that's not me, for ideological reasons. Because I care about this thing called objectivity, because I know such thoughts make me feel bad, because women are already endlessly objectified (a lot of the time, against their will). Because I'm a man, and being of the male sex, desiring a population distinctly genetically different from myself just feels weird and unnatural.

If, in an alternate reality, men were the ones who were always sexualised and objectified, and never women, and I was a woman, it's possible I would've been gynophilic instead of androphilic. Currently, I live in a world where women are only ever sexualised and objectified, and I'm a man. So, it makes sense for me to be erotically interested and sexually attracted to masculine men, exclusively the male sex.

Literally any time I want, I can stop feeling things for men, quit liking them. Heck, straight women can, whenever they choose to.

A bunch of studies have found that lesbian-identified women are just as sexually turned on (measured by genital movement and eye dilation) as bisexual-identified and heterosexual-identified women by guy on guy porn, when they were test subjects watching such sexual activity. Sorry I can't find the study (I think I actually bookmarked it, but it's so far down my list of citations, I can't get it now), but if you look up similar things, you'll find it's accurate science. But, does this mean that such women were actually turned on by male on male action? It depends on the individual woman. A straight-identified woman may not like gay male porn, but a lesbian-identified woman may love it. Hence, why certain lesbians regularly watch gay male porn, or only ever watch it in terms of their erotic choices.

What I'm saying is that there's no actual genetic difference between women of any claimed sexual orientation. Straight-identified women can experience sensual movement in response to watching lesbian porn, and lesbian-identified women can feel the exact same way watching gay male porn. Likewise, it has been found, in a variety of academic studies (again, I've probably bookmarked them, but it's so far down that citations list), that straight-identified men are just as equally sexually moved, in terms of genitalia and eye dilation, as bisexual-identified and gay-identified men, when watching guy on guy pornography. But, this doesn't mean everyone who's been in these tests likes this erotic business equally.

Let's say that a woman is in the process of being raped, and though her rapist never touches her genitalia, her vagina nonetheless opens up. Does this mean she was sexually aroused? No! Absolutely not! There was zero, absolutely zero, sexual excitement derived from such an incident. She was not turned on, she was not sexually aroused or sexually attracted. She hated every moment of such torture and torment. If anything, her genitalia moving actually made far worse for her. Psychologically damaging, she was under the impression that she was 'sexually turned on,' and therefore must've somehow 'enjoyed' it. But, she didn't enjoy it. A lot of women, and a lot of men, experience genitalia movement, even when no touching has commenced, in response to incidents of sexual violence being committed against them. However, they hate this, and it instils an immense quantity of shame and guilt into them, self-hatred. The reason their genitalia did what it did was because the act being performed on them is considered sexual by society, and, therefore, subconsciously, someone's genitals move, but no sexual attraction is present whatsoever. Likewise, eye dilation occurs when someone checks out a painting, or looks at small-sized words. It's not inherently sexual, as nothing is. It doesn't, at all, imply sexual arousal. Nothing does. 'Sexual arousal' is just something society has made up.

Sexuality isn't like taste buds. I don't really like chocolate cake, because I don't tend to like sweet stuff. I'm a savoury person. But I actually have evidence for this, since taste buds objectively exist. No matter how hard I try, I can't make broccoli soup taste good. I can, however, direct my thoughts in such a way as to get, and maintain, an erection, and climax shortly afterwards as a result. This is something anyone can do.

I do apologise if some of the stuff I've mentioned about myself is rather graphic. I'm just describing in scientific terms the process of sexual arousal.

[–]usehername 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I've seen the studies you're referencing and they were measuring vaginal lubrication. Women experience vaginal lubrication as a response to all sexual stimuli (including visual, such as watching porn) as a defense against rape. If a woman is raped and does not lubricate, she could die. Women can and do experience vaginal lubrication without arousal of the clitoris (check out a diagram, some of it's internal) which is the female sexual pleasure organ. Lubrication as a defense against rape isn't true arousal. However, it's true that some people may experience unwanted arousal during rape as a result of being sexually stimulated. This completely undermines your point that sexual arousal and orientation is a choice.

I can, however, direct my thoughts in such a way as to get, and maintain, an erection, and climax shortly afterwards as a result. This is something anyone can do.

Genuine question: can you orgasm to the thought of a woman (no fetishes involved, just the woman, her experience and her body)? If so, you aren't gay, you're bi. You may choose to "live as a gay man" and never pursue women, but you're not gay. Gay men (exclusively homosexual males) aren't attracted to women and can't orgasm at the thought of them.

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

The preparation hypothesis. https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0956797610394660

This completely undermines your point that sexual arousal and orientation is a choice.

👍

[–]usehername 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for the source

[–]SexualityCritical[S] 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

The studies were measuring arousal via vaginal lubrication. So, yes, we're both thinking of the same studies. Now, I'm a man, and no man has a vagina. So, I don't quite know how this stuff works. But, based upon your description, it does sound rather weird and sketchy to claim that a woman could die as a result of not lubricating while being raped. The body does not recognise sex, as virginity is a social construct, so the only way this could be is if an object - a penetrative one; maybe a penis, but not having to be - enters into her vaginal area, and she fails to lubricate while this is happening. If so, it would be the case that many women, who have broken vaginas, possibly a result of female genital mutilation, die masturbating, placing penis shaped objects into their genitalia, and failing to lubricate. I'm sorry. I don't mean to come off as insensitive. It's just that I've literally never heard of this before.

So, you're saying that for a women to be sexually arousal, it can only be measured through clit simulation? That her clitoris has enlarged? I don't know if any studies exist for that, but the belief that clitoris or penis movement stems from sexual arousal is actually pseudo-science. The reason I brought it up in the first place, mentioning those studies, was because if people did consider that sexuality, sexual arousal, it would mean that anyone can choose their sexuality.

Firstly, why do you think that women were suddenly lubricated after viewing sexual imagery? Clearly, women are only a microscopic fraction of the time vaginally lubricated. I highly doubt it was a coincidence.

Secondly, a person cannot get an erection, or a stimulated clitoris, without fetishistic thinking. If I look at a woman, even a conventionally attractive woman, even a woman I consider attractive, even a woman I consider attractive that is performing erotic acts, or is naked, I cannot get an erection. My genitalia does not move at all, but sits still. There is no enlargement of my penis or bass, and the same goes for any woman, as she, even if she calls herself a lesbian, will not feel anything, or vagina won't move, if there's no fetishistic thoughts involved. When I think about a man, or whenever I have in the past thought about a woman, I cannot receive an erection without focusing on specific things, which are super specific, in order for my genitals to harden. Hence, why simply looking at pictures of women, for lesbians, isn't arousing. It is having certain, particularistic thoughts about such women that gets them off.

You can do this with a lamp. At first glance, there is nothing inherently sexual about a lamp. But, the identical sentiment can be expressed about human beings. Human beings are not inherently sexual. They can reproduce, sure, but reproduction isn't always viewed as erotic. What is and isn't erotic is determined by society, by culture. Socialisation causes one to view certain actions, objects, and behaviours as sexual, while not viewing other things as sexual. Hence, why it's the case that for some people feet are sexual, and they can sexually get off to feet, can climax with either a penis and balls or vagina. However, for the same people, viewing people without clothes on isn't sexual. And it's not innately sexual. Nudity is just nudity. We all have private parts. Heaps of classical art depicting people women wasn't painted for the sake of erotica arousal, nor did the painters even have in their minds the idea that should depictions are sexual. Additionally, people don't view such paintings as sexual, and don't get off to them. The status of 'sexualness' is socially constructed. Thus, the brain, and the genitals by extension, cannot recognise something as sexual in itself, but only in relation to culture. If you were to have certain thoughts about a lamp, no matter how ordinary that lamp looked, one would be able to climax. It's not the case that certain people don't possess the genes to do such a thing. Anyone can do such a thing. It's just the case that some people know how to climax to certain objects, and others simply don't. For a lot of people, if they were stuck in a room with nothing but a lamp for the rest of their lives, they would eventually figure out how to successfully, and easily, masturbate and ejaculate to the lamp.

Do you get what I'm saying?

I don't ever want to erase lesbians, what being a lesbian means. That's what TRAs are doing. I'm simply saying that if any woman wishes to be a lesbian, decides to choose such a path, she can be one. The reason the term 'gay' for me makes more sense than 'bisexual' is because I don't like women sexually. That is a choice I've made. Anyone can climax to anything. I've just chosen to only get hard to guys and masturbate to images and videos of men. I've touched myself to drawings of women in the past. I didn't like it for a moment, for even though I was able to get erect, I was unhappy the whole time, and felt very gross afterwards. That was entirely due to my ideological beliefs. It was bad for my mental health, but liking men is good for my mental health. My experiences aren't the same for everyone, though. I just speak for myself. If a woman doesn't like being sexually orientated toward men, she doesn't have to be. This is what lesbian feminists are critiquing when they critique compulsory heterosexuality.

[–][deleted] 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well, with regards to yourself, you've got a theory. I encourage you to go out and empirically test it. You're not the first one to come up with your line of reasoning, and you won't be the last. Like many before you, however, I don't think that you'll find it holds any water in the real world. I think you're trying to cope with some issue you have about being homosexual, and have tried to do so in a very complex way, probably because of your intelligence.

Almost all of us non-heterosexual people have had some variety of struggle with it. It can be a minor inconvenience, all the way up to a life-long struggle to deal with it. There are many avenues available to try and resolve it. Some people have a relatively easy time of it. Others, read every single scrap of sex research, Queer Theory, history, anthropology, psychology, sociology... they get their hands on to try and come up with a correct model for the entire phenomena.... That's the route you've gone down, and you should probably try and conclude it. Just test as you go, empirically.

A bunch of studies have found that lesbian-identified women are just as sexually turned on (measured by genital movement and eye dilation) as bisexual-identified and heterosexual-identified women by guy on guy porn, when they were test subjects watching such sexual activity.

Not quite, assuming we're referring to the same corpus. DOI: 10.1007/978-0-387-09556-1 if you want to see IMHO hastily-drawn conclusions, and go here for references that has the corpus in question. See note #7: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1529100616637616 , also the whole article is excellent as a general introduction.