you are viewing a single comment's thread.

view the rest of the comments →

[–]absoluteblasphemy 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Because “gender” is a term for language and sex is a term for the body. The idea of “gender” as something different from sex came from feminist scholars who were taking about the “gender roles” as imposed on females, from there post modernists divorced it from sex to create “gender identity”.

This is what happens when we extrapolate and extrapolate, we lose and misunderstand the meaning of words. Now we can’t even agree on what they mean. However it’s very bold of you to come here and assume that gender is something different to sex; we don’t think that. They’re two words that refer to the same principal, male and female, they’re only different in their grammatical context.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Absolute, it was actually US psychiatrist Robert Stoller in the 1960s who popularized "gender" in humans as something different from sex, though he thought "gender" was associated with sex and believed it arose from sex, meaning has a biological basis. John Money seized on the idea, but changed it, postulating that everyone has a "gender identity" that is entirely constructed and therefore is separate to sex and can be opposite to one's sex. Money further had the idea that a person's sense of their own sex and their "gender identity" was solely determined by one's gonads and the configuration of one's external genitals and urinary anatomy. This led him to believe that if the penis and testicles of a baby boy were removed, and the boy's parents raised him "as a girl," and he was put on exogenous estrogen at puberty, he would develop a "female gender identity." A theory he tried - but failed - to prove to disastrous results by his cruel experiment on, and twisted treatment and sex abuse of, David Reimer and his brother, both of whom would take their own lives in their 30s.

Stoller published his book Sex and Gender: The Development of Masculinity and Femininity in 1968, but he had written and lectured on the ideas contained in it earlier.

Also, it's important to note that Stoller's ideas about "gender" came from his work treating and studying people who in the 1960s were known as transsexuals.

Feminist scholars and writers in the 1960s, 70s and most of the 80s generally didn't speak much about "gender." Or about gender at all.

Perhaps some who exclusively wrote for academic audiences did, but the majority of scholars as well as people who wrote about "women's issues" and feminism for wider audiences & the general public talked about sex stereotypes, sex roles, sexism, sex norms, sexist expectations, sex-based oppression, sex discrimination and so on. The widespread use of the term "gender" as a euphemism for sex and to mean sex stereotypes & sex roles is pretty recent, and not the doing of feminists.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

... So, if I understand this correctly your statement is that "Feminism invented gender until it was inconvenient so then it was like NO, NOT LIKE THAT."

As for comments on extrapolation, most of that extrapolation is based on hard science. I would encourage you to see transwomen as allies to feminist causes, but I'm not here to do that. I'm here to hear out your views to better inform my own.

[–]WildApples 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You are not really making a good-faith effort to engage. You completely twisted and created a strawman out of her very clear explanation of the fundamental difference we have with you about the concept of gender. You cannot browbeat us into accepting your conception of gender.

I am very curious as to why you think we should see trans-identifying men as allies. You do not share our experiences or problems, your interests often conflict with ours, and you yourself are demonstrating here a disinclination to empathize with us, instead talking down to us in a way that could be deemed "mansplaining." What do we get from seeing you as allies other than having males demanding that we subordinate ourselves and center our worldviews and expression around them? How would accepting you as allies help us women?

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

... So, if I understand this correctly your statement is that "Feminism invented gender until it was inconvenient so then it was like NO, NOT LIKE THAT."

u/asboluteblaspemy didn't mean "feminism invented gender" LOL. She prefaced her point about "feminist scholars who were taking about the “gender roles” as imposed on females," by saying "the idea of “gender” as something different from sex came from feminist scholars." Which is not what actually happened, but still doesn't change the meaning and merit of her overall statement, which was quite clear - and is true.

[–]absoluteblasphemy 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I’m not a feminist, I actually think the conception of “gender roles” led us to this exact problem, that was my point so no you’re not correct. I’m also a very traditional woman so you are hot outta luck trying to convince me that confused men can be my “feminist allies”.

I don’t want men to be feminist allies, I want men to be men and women to be women.