A question for the community.

submitted by [deleted] from (self.GenderCritical)

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[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (23 children)

If that were the case, this exact same medical research being funded would prove your claim though, wouldn't it?

[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (22 children)

Go for it, then. Drugging yourself with artificial hormones does cause all sorts of medical side effects which might be worth researching. In the meantime, it would be prudent for these people to acknowledge that their heart attack symptoms will be based on sex.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (21 children)

As the name implies, bioidentical hormones are just that... hormones that are biologically identical to the hormones produced by the relevant sex organ. Estrogen bioidenticals, for example, were originally developed for the treatment of post-menopausal symptoms of women. TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

Meanwhile, what evidence do you have to support the claim of heart attack symptoms being as you describe?

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

...Are you serious right now? Hormones do not work the same in male bodies as they do in female bodies, REGARDLESS of what type of hormones they are or if you are taking them at a comparable rate. TIMs interactions with estrogen can only tell us how males respond to estrogen. It tells us NOTHING about post-menopausal women.

Site your evidence that hormones literally remake physiology, and I'll dig up some studies that say that men remain men and have male symptoms - even after taking estrogen.

[–]RationalNeutral 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Why do I get the feeling you will fail to produce evidence after I produce mine? I'll be back in a moment.

Here's the first googled result: https://opentextbc.ca/biology/chapter/18-2-how-hormones-work/

And here's relevant sections:

The cell signaling pathways induced by the steroid hormones regulate specific genes on the cell’s DNA. The hormones and receptor complex act as transcription regulators by increasing or decreasing the synthesis of mRNA molecules of specific genes. This, in turn, determines the amount of corresponding protein that is synthesized by altering gene expression. This protein can be used either to change the structure of the cell or to produce enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions.

Hormones cause cellular changes by binding to receptors on target cells.

Lipid-derived (soluble) hormones can enter the cell by diffusing across the plasma membrane and binding to DNA to regulate gene transcription and to change the cell’s activities by inducing production of proteins that affect, in general, the long-term structure and function of the cell.

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

LOL, that article says right at the top that these XY people learn that something is amiss during puberty. Coz, you see, menarche is a thing that girls & their parents are well aware of and acutely on the lookout from about age 10 on. Maybe if you knew anything about girls & women, our physiology, our development & our life experiences, you'd realize this.

The average age for girls to get their first period is 12. Which means many get their period at 10 or 11. Some start at 9 or 8; only a period before turning 8 is considered a sign of "precocious puberty" in girls. 98% of girls get their period by the time they turn 15. Girls talk about their periods amongst their friends and female family members - so most girls are very clued in to which of their friends & relatives have started menstruating already, & who hasn't. Sometimes girls being out of sync in this regard can lead to jealousies & rifts in friendships snd amongst sisters. For example, when I first got my period shortly after turning 11, my closest friend got very angry coz she was 15 months older and hadn't gotten hers yet.

Any girl who turns 15 without having gotten a period yet will be very aware that her situation is highly unusual, and she'll likely be extremely worried that "something is wrong" too. Socially, she most likely will feel awkward & "left out." Some other girls who know her situation might be mean to her as a result. But the girl herself will be acutely aware that something is off.

It's total bullshit that there are whole lot of XY people who truly believe themselves to be female who've gotten to adulthood and beyond "completely unaware of their genetic makeup living (their) lives as women" and never questioning their sex when none of them have ever had a period.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, good job.

If only more people in the sub applied a basic level of critical analysis this community as a whole would earn far more credibility for naming itself "gender critical". Unfortunately though, /u/lefterfield did not do that work and for a community that has named itself after critical analysis of gender theory's claims, it is frankly quite infuriating that it took this long for someone call out that bullshit.

So I mean /u/Marktwainiac you have my respect, you do actually follow through in being critical and I appreciate that about your responses.

If only the entire community did as their name implied.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Physiology: the branch of biology that deals with the normal functions of living organisms and their parts. the way in which a living organism or bodily part functions.

So you're giving me an article from a textbook on how hormones bond to a cell. And about unusual chromosome patterns as if that's supposed to be relevant to anything(hint: it's not). What you're needing to find is a study that shows that hormone changes cause physiological changes on a system-wide scale, since your claim is that taking cross sex hormones can change how heart attacks work in male vs female bodies. This would also require showing that hormones are in some way responsible for heart attack symptoms in a normal member of either sex.

So, here's a weird little condition that for some reason only women and TIFs suffer from:

https://cancer-network.org/cancer-information/transgendergender-nonconforming-people-and-cancer/ovarian-cancer-in-transgender-men/

Could you explain to me why, no matter how much testosterone a male, transgender or not, takes, he will never develop ovarian cancer?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Something that might be useful for your search would be cross-sex heart transplants: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heart-transplant-idUKTRE4AB7FK20081112

I would suspect that if your claim holds as much as you propose, that a cross-sex heart transplant would fail 100% of the time, but the above article is showing a 15% failure rate for men-only. Which, suggests there is something more complicated going on.

Transgender medical research MIGHT help shed light on the nuances that can decrease that kind of risk.

The article points out that Male hearts vary in size from Women's hearts, which, could be exactly influenced by sex hormones (and not genetic makeup) during puberty.

So then the question might get posed do we see the same kind of rate of failures for pre-puberty heart transplants?

That's your rabbit hole to go down though, seeing as at the moment I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most of the marked sex differences in human heart size - and thus differences in such factors as how hard & fast the heart has to work to pump the same amount of blood - occur as a result of the changes each sex goes through in the puberty of adolescence. In/after puberty, the left ventricle - the muscled chamber that pumps blood to the rest of the body - in males is 25-38% larger than in females. Prior to puberty, the difference is much smaller - males only have a 6% advantage prior to age 12 - but 6% is still not nothing.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7490158/

In pediatric heart transplants

Organ-recipient gender mismatch did not affect mortality for either male or female recipients, though gender-mismatched females had the worst survival compared to gender-matched males, who had the best survival (unadjusted HR 1.26, CI 1.07-1.49; p = 0.005). After adjustment for other risk factors affecting transplant mortality, female recipients had decreased survival compared to male recipients (HR 1.27, CI 1.12-1.44; p = 0.020) and gender matching had no effect. In conclusion, gender mismatch alone did not increase long-term mortality for pediatric heart transplant recipients. However, there may be additive effects of gender and gender matching affecting survival. There are insufficient data at this time

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24119046/

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is pretty consistent with my current understanding of the development of the human body at various ages. I don't have any issue with what you've presented here, other than I really wanted /u/lefterfield to show they are capable of doing the work or if they'd rather opine away.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't in any way contradict anything I said. No, I would find it a far more surprising result if cross-sex transplants were always a failure. A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger. Same as a male liver, or pancreas, or kidney. Separating people into individual organs doesn't answer the question of male vs female physiology.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Size is only one of the many important differences that have been found in male & female kidneys. Sex

of donor and recipient plays a larger role in kidney transplants than previously assumed. Female donor kidneys do not function as well in men -- due to their smaller size. Women have a higher risk of rejecting a male donor kidney.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00584.2018

Major differences have been found in other human organs too, including the heart.

Large studies have been carried out with respect to the cardiac functions among the different sexes in both animals and humans, though the studies on male predominate. There is increasing evidence that the biological sex play a significant role in cardiac functioning, as well as in the occurrence and outcome of cardiac disease. Female sex tends to have an upper hand in the heart function which is progressively lost once they attain menopause. Sex differences have been reported in left ventricular hypertrophy, cardiac remodelling with aging, arrhythmogenic activity and post-infarct myocardial salvage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4190707/

The anatomic location of the major vessels in the heart, lung, and most organs are indistinguishable among the sexes. Similarly, the cardiovascular systems of males and females have the same formed elements circulating in the blood, the vessels are composed of the same cell types, and the union of the elements perform the same functions. Healthy men and women are in homeostasis. Consequently, it makes sense to conclude that the functions and functional responses of all of these common elements are the same in men and women, right? Well, no, not necessarily, and that is where the tale becomes interesting. The take-home message of this monograph will be that while men and women are indeed in homeostasis and they possess the same structural elements, how those components function to achieve homeostasis with respect to the cardiovascular system differs (from subtly to profoundly). The manifestation of these differences has a real outcome: how and when cardiovascular disease occurs, how disease can be prevented, and what can be done to ameliorate or treat its manifestations effectively https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/advan.00099.2006

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6298433/

https://www.cardofmich.com/men-women-heart-differences/

There are many marked differences - starting at birth - between the lung tissue, lung secretions and lung function of males and females that go way, way beyond size differences too. Male and female humans actually breathe differently! I first twigged to some of these differences decades ago because I grew up with a brother & sister who both had cystic fibrosis, which ravages the lungs - and even in the 1950s & early 1960s when CF was first being understood & described in medical literature, notable differences were observed in how the same disease from the same exact genetic flaw (Delta F-508) manifested in the two sexes even from the same parentage & household and with the same medical treatment, nutrition, level of exercise, home care, physical therapy, interventions, etc. Generally speaking girls with CF tend to get much sicker much sooner than boys, and they die younger.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please let the other poster know.

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Some sources about sex differences in human lungs and respiration:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5980468/

http://www.luzimarteixeira.com.br/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/mecanismos_respiracao_no_esforco_2008.pdf

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

I literally said that I wasn't attempting to contradict you with this comment, do you even read the comments your respond to?

A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger.

So then, in the absence of larger discrepancies, like the explicit existence or nonexistence of an organ, as a whole the biochemical response (for the administration of medicine) is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

Nooooo. This is the thing you need to find evidence for. Our bodies are not just organs held together by hormones.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That would more or less require me to summarize an entire medical school curriculum in a saidit comment, for that level of explanation you would be better off taking formal courses.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lol. Get your head out of your ass - though check for prostate cancer before you do - and come back with an actual argument. Actually no, just leave.