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[–]lefterfield 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (29 children)

Go for it, then. Drugging yourself with artificial hormones does cause all sorts of medical side effects which might be worth researching. In the meantime, it would be prudent for these people to acknowledge that their heart attack symptoms will be based on sex.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (28 children)

As the name implies, bioidentical hormones are just that... hormones that are biologically identical to the hormones produced by the relevant sex organ. Estrogen bioidenticals, for example, were originally developed for the treatment of post-menopausal symptoms of women. TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

Meanwhile, what evidence do you have to support the claim of heart attack symptoms being as you describe?

[–]lefterfield 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (20 children)

...Are you serious right now? Hormones do not work the same in male bodies as they do in female bodies, REGARDLESS of what type of hormones they are or if you are taking them at a comparable rate. TIMs interactions with estrogen can only tell us how males respond to estrogen. It tells us NOTHING about post-menopausal women.

Site your evidence that hormones literally remake physiology, and I'll dig up some studies that say that men remain men and have male symptoms - even after taking estrogen.

[–]RationalNeutral 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

Why do I get the feeling you will fail to produce evidence after I produce mine? I'll be back in a moment.

Here's the first googled result: https://opentextbc.ca/biology/chapter/18-2-how-hormones-work/

And here's relevant sections:

The cell signaling pathways induced by the steroid hormones regulate specific genes on the cell’s DNA. The hormones and receptor complex act as transcription regulators by increasing or decreasing the synthesis of mRNA molecules of specific genes. This, in turn, determines the amount of corresponding protein that is synthesized by altering gene expression. This protein can be used either to change the structure of the cell or to produce enzymes that catalyze chemical reactions.

Hormones cause cellular changes by binding to receptors on target cells.

Lipid-derived (soluble) hormones can enter the cell by diffusing across the plasma membrane and binding to DNA to regulate gene transcription and to change the cell’s activities by inducing production of proteins that affect, in general, the long-term structure and function of the cell.

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Then what of these people that are born with XY genetic makeup, some go on completely unaware of their genetic makeup living lives as women?: https://novonordiskfonden.dk/en/news/more-women-than-expected-are-genetically-men/

LOL, that article says right at the top that these XY people learn that something is amiss during puberty. Coz, you see, menarche is a thing that girls & their parents are well aware of and acutely on the lookout from about age 10 on. Maybe if you knew anything about girls & women, our physiology, our development & our life experiences, you'd realize this.

The average age for girls to get their first period is 12. Which means many get their period at 10 or 11. Some start at 9 or 8; only a period before turning 8 is considered a sign of "precocious puberty" in girls. 98% of girls get their period by the time they turn 15. Girls talk about their periods amongst their friends and female family members - so most girls are very clued in to which of their friends & relatives have started menstruating already, & who hasn't. Sometimes girls being out of sync in this regard can lead to jealousies & rifts in friendships snd amongst sisters. For example, when I first got my period shortly after turning 11, my closest friend got very angry coz she was 15 months older and hadn't gotten hers yet.

Any girl who turns 15 without having gotten a period yet will be very aware that her situation is highly unusual, and she'll likely be extremely worried that "something is wrong" too. Socially, she most likely will feel awkward & "left out." Some other girls who know her situation might be mean to her as a result. But the girl herself will be acutely aware that something is off.

It's total bullshit that there are whole lot of XY people who truly believe themselves to be female who've gotten to adulthood and beyond "completely unaware of their genetic makeup living (their) lives as women" and never questioning their sex when none of them have ever had a period.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, good job.

If only more people in the sub applied a basic level of critical analysis this community as a whole would earn far more credibility for naming itself "gender critical". Unfortunately though, /u/lefterfield did not do that work and for a community that has named itself after critical analysis of gender theory's claims, it is frankly quite infuriating that it took this long for someone call out that bullshit.

So I mean /u/Marktwainiac you have my respect, you do actually follow through in being critical and I appreciate that about your responses.

If only the entire community did as their name implied.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Physiology: the branch of biology that deals with the normal functions of living organisms and their parts. the way in which a living organism or bodily part functions.

So you're giving me an article from a textbook on how hormones bond to a cell. And about unusual chromosome patterns as if that's supposed to be relevant to anything(hint: it's not). What you're needing to find is a study that shows that hormone changes cause physiological changes on a system-wide scale, since your claim is that taking cross sex hormones can change how heart attacks work in male vs female bodies. This would also require showing that hormones are in some way responsible for heart attack symptoms in a normal member of either sex.

So, here's a weird little condition that for some reason only women and TIFs suffer from:

https://cancer-network.org/cancer-information/transgendergender-nonconforming-people-and-cancer/ovarian-cancer-in-transgender-men/

Could you explain to me why, no matter how much testosterone a male, transgender or not, takes, he will never develop ovarian cancer?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Something that might be useful for your search would be cross-sex heart transplants: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heart-transplant-idUKTRE4AB7FK20081112

I would suspect that if your claim holds as much as you propose, that a cross-sex heart transplant would fail 100% of the time, but the above article is showing a 15% failure rate for men-only. Which, suggests there is something more complicated going on.

Transgender medical research MIGHT help shed light on the nuances that can decrease that kind of risk.

The article points out that Male hearts vary in size from Women's hearts, which, could be exactly influenced by sex hormones (and not genetic makeup) during puberty.

So then the question might get posed do we see the same kind of rate of failures for pre-puberty heart transplants?

That's your rabbit hole to go down though, seeing as at the moment I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Most of the marked sex differences in human heart size - and thus differences in such factors as how hard & fast the heart has to work to pump the same amount of blood - occur as a result of the changes each sex goes through in the puberty of adolescence. In/after puberty, the left ventricle - the muscled chamber that pumps blood to the rest of the body - in males is 25-38% larger than in females. Prior to puberty, the difference is much smaller - males only have a 6% advantage prior to age 12 - but 6% is still not nothing.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7490158/

In pediatric heart transplants

Organ-recipient gender mismatch did not affect mortality for either male or female recipients, though gender-mismatched females had the worst survival compared to gender-matched males, who had the best survival (unadjusted HR 1.26, CI 1.07-1.49; p = 0.005). After adjustment for other risk factors affecting transplant mortality, female recipients had decreased survival compared to male recipients (HR 1.27, CI 1.12-1.44; p = 0.020) and gender matching had no effect. In conclusion, gender mismatch alone did not increase long-term mortality for pediatric heart transplant recipients. However, there may be additive effects of gender and gender matching affecting survival. There are insufficient data at this time

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24119046/

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is pretty consistent with my current understanding of the development of the human body at various ages. I don't have any issue with what you've presented here, other than I really wanted /u/lefterfield to show they are capable of doing the work or if they'd rather opine away.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

I'm sorry, what? That doesn't in any way contradict anything I said. No, I would find it a far more surprising result if cross-sex transplants were always a failure. A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger. Same as a male liver, or pancreas, or kidney. Separating people into individual organs doesn't answer the question of male vs female physiology.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Size is only one of the many important differences that have been found in male & female kidneys. Sex

of donor and recipient plays a larger role in kidney transplants than previously assumed. Female donor kidneys do not function as well in men -- due to their smaller size. Women have a higher risk of rejecting a male donor kidney.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/ajprenal.00584.2018

Major differences have been found in other human organs too, including the heart.

Large studies have been carried out with respect to the cardiac functions among the different sexes in both animals and humans, though the studies on male predominate. There is increasing evidence that the biological sex play a significant role in cardiac functioning, as well as in the occurrence and outcome of cardiac disease. Female sex tends to have an upper hand in the heart function which is progressively lost once they attain menopause. Sex differences have been reported in left ventricular hypertrophy, cardiac remodelling with aging, arrhythmogenic activity and post-infarct myocardial salvage.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4190707/

The anatomic location of the major vessels in the heart, lung, and most organs are indistinguishable among the sexes. Similarly, the cardiovascular systems of males and females have the same formed elements circulating in the blood, the vessels are composed of the same cell types, and the union of the elements perform the same functions. Healthy men and women are in homeostasis. Consequently, it makes sense to conclude that the functions and functional responses of all of these common elements are the same in men and women, right? Well, no, not necessarily, and that is where the tale becomes interesting. The take-home message of this monograph will be that while men and women are indeed in homeostasis and they possess the same structural elements, how those components function to achieve homeostasis with respect to the cardiovascular system differs (from subtly to profoundly). The manifestation of these differences has a real outcome: how and when cardiovascular disease occurs, how disease can be prevented, and what can be done to ameliorate or treat its manifestations effectively https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/advan.00099.2006

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6298433/

https://www.cardofmich.com/men-women-heart-differences/

There are many marked differences - starting at birth - between the lung tissue, lung secretions and lung function of males and females that go way, way beyond size differences too. Male and female humans actually breathe differently! I first twigged to some of these differences decades ago because I grew up with a brother & sister who both had cystic fibrosis, which ravages the lungs - and even in the 1950s & early 1960s when CF was first being understood & described in medical literature, notable differences were observed in how the same disease from the same exact genetic flaw (Delta F-508) manifested in the two sexes even from the same parentage & household and with the same medical treatment, nutrition, level of exercise, home care, physical therapy, interventions, etc. Generally speaking girls with CF tend to get much sicker much sooner than boys, and they die younger.

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Please let the other poster know.

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I'm attempting to prove your point for you on the suspicion you aren't going to put in the effort.

I literally said that I wasn't attempting to contradict you with this comment, do you even read the comments your respond to?

A male heart is - as far as I'm aware - very similar to a female heart, just larger.

So then, in the absence of larger discrepancies, like the explicit existence or nonexistence of an organ, as a whole the biochemical response (for the administration of medicine) is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

[–]lefterfield 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

is going to be far more similar to the sex hormone being taken at the time, correct?

Nooooo. This is the thing you need to find evidence for. Our bodies are not just organs held together by hormones.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

That would more or less require me to summarize an entire medical school curriculum in a saidit comment, for that level of explanation you would be better off taking formal courses.

[–]lefterfield 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Lol. Get your head out of your ass - though check for prostate cancer before you do - and come back with an actual argument. Actually no, just leave.

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I provided sources for you to do your own research, it's up to you to actually do that research though.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

What evidence do you have for your claim that

Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones

????

By which I mean not exogenous hormones generally like insulin, thyroid hormone, hepcidin or adrenalin. And not sex hormones taken by the sex in which they are most prevalent and who have the appropriate receptors for them in the right amount, as in the case of the estrogen & progesterone in hormonal BC meant for females, the hormones in HRT taken by women for menopause, or the hormone oxytocin (in synthetic form pitocin) sometimes given to women in labor.

Please provide the evidence that "cells fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones" that pertains specifically to the particular sex hormones predominant in one sex taken by the opposite sex in amounts meant to mimic the levels that occur naturally in the opposite sex in their prime reproductive years - namely exogenous T taken by females in high doses, and exogenous estrogen taken in high dose by males.

Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

Waiting with bated breath to find out all the ways that cells "fundamentally alter their functions" due to exogenous sex hormones. Remember, you didn't say cells cease, reduce, increase, speed up their normal functions, or that they might proliferate, grow or shrink - you said cells "fundamentally alter their functions."

As for your claim that

TIMs offer an opportunity to study the longer-term effects of HRT treatment than post-menopause cases can offer.

No they don't! HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy." The HRT you are talking about was designed to replace the hormones that women's bodies naturally make, have the correct kind & amount of receptors for, and which female bodies have evolved to utilize in female-specific ways. When males take these hormones it's not "HRT"! Moreover, you seem to be suggesting that post-menopausal women are physically the same as men. That's misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh.

Studying TIMs who take cross-sex hormones late in life will provide absolutely ZERO information - useful or not - about "the longer-term effects of HRT treatment." To get a picture "the longer-term effects of HRT treatment" requires studying women on long-term HRT. Not effing men.

As a matter of fact, quite a lot of research on "the longer-term effects on HRT" in women has been done, and more is ongoing. Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I haven't read your comment in completion because I have 7 different threads that I am juggling at the moment.

From skimming you seem to be asking for the same evidence as a different thread... as such, I'm linking this response: https://saidit.net/s/GenderCritical/comments/7tfg/a_question_for_the_community/tb33

[–]RationalNeutral 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Circling back...

Also, most TIMs who take exogenous estrogen also use powerful T blockers. How can you be sure that the changes in cellular function you claim are a result of exogenous (sex) hormones isn't due to powerful steroid hormone blockers like Spironolactone?

Because estradiol monotherapy is a thing, a great number of transgender people do not take a hormone blocker and just use an abundance of estradiol to suppress testosterone production down to acceptable levels. I am one such person.

I know of some doctors who start with hormone blockers and then after achieving an appropriate balance of estradiol in a person, switch to estradiol monotherapy as well.


As for the "Misogynistic, male centrist, male supremacist" part of your comment...

On the one hand, the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole. Which, I mean, there are absolutely men who do terrible things that earn that ire, and if you've been subject to traumatic experiences, discrimination, or otherwise... you have my compassion and empathy. Given your views, I won't be able to help you overcome those matters, but I feel for you and wish the best for you.

To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

On the other hand...

My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy."

Exactly, in TIMs, you are replacing testosterone with estrogen.

In post-menopausal women, you are replenishing estrogen.

It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

Why on earth would anyone think a good way - or the best way - to find out the impact of long-term HRT in us is to give female hormones to men and to study them?

Longer durations possible than post-menopausal cases.

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

I stand by my earlier comments. You have provided ZERO evidence or substantiation for your preposterous claim that

Some cells do fundamentally alter their function in response to exogenous hormones

Or for your other claims, such as that studying old men who take exogenous estrogen will provide valuable insight into female health and medical care. Coz there is no evidence or substantiation for the pie-in-the-sky malarkey you've made up out of whole cloth.

I did not say that transgender people are "misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist." Nor would I, coz I know a number who aren't. I didn't say you are that way either. I said simply that the views you are espousing are "misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh." Look, see here:

you seem to be suggesting that post-menopausal women are physically the same as men. That's misogynistic, male-centrist, male-supremacist tosh.

You're the only one on this thread that has come out with ad hominems to cast aspersions on me as a person. And tellingly, you've used sexist ad hominems specifically meant to deride me and dismiss everything I say simply because I am a woman:

the level of contempt apparent in your comment makes it seem like your hatred of trangender people is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole.

LOL, why don't you call me a frigid man hater & ball buster while you're all it!

BTW, whilst I was typing this one of my adult sons phoned. He had a good laugh at the idea that because I disagree with you and called you out on the misogynistic tosh you're spouting, it means I am full of "contempt" and "hatred" for everyone in an entire population group, and he wants you to know that you are absolutely brilliant in sussing out that my supposed contempt and hatred of all "transgender people"

is really an outlet for a greater overarching hatred of men as a whole.

As for your query,

To that end though, why do you apply that same hatred to TIFs? Lumping all transgender people together?

I don't understand. My comment didn't mention TIFs at all. The idea that I "apply that same hatred to TIFs" seems to come from the same place that you got your belief that when males take estrogen in hopes it will make them resemble women it causes their cells to "fundamentally alter their function." Which in polite circles is sometimes referred to as where the sun don't shine.

Finally, I don't get why in response to my statement that

HRT stands for "hormone replacement therapy." The HRT you are talking about was designed to replace the hormones that women's bodies naturally make, have the correct kind & amount of receptors for, and which female bodies have evolved to utilize in female-specific ways. When males take these hormones it's not "HRT"!

You would respond by saying

It's also not called Hormone Replenishment Therapy, but that is never the less what it does for post-menopausal women.

As if this is some gotcha. Comes across as mansplaining to me. Or maybe it's TIM transplaining; after all, replenish and replace have slightly different meanings.

But the real issue here is that, as you yourself say,

My current understanding is that the only major difference between each sex are cumulative changes as a function of time and certain life changes that are influenced by sex hormones.

Which is an admission that you are very poorly informed and have not kept up with the scientific literature on sex differences and development in human zygotes, embryos, fetuses, children and adults that's come out since the 1990s - and all that's been learned in the era of stem cell research.

[–]MarkTwainiac 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I forgot to respond to this:

On a biochemical level, yes, I would view them [the two sexes] as the same. If that weren't the case, there would be a need for a male-only covid vaccine and a female-only vaccine.

The fact that you would say this shows not only that you are unaware of the myriad fundamental differences between human male & female immune function, but you've also never looked into the history of women's exclusion from most drug trials including vaccine trials, you're clueless about the different ways females from infancy on respond to vaccines - and you don't even pay attention to the news about COVID and its vaccines.

https://www.wavy.com/covid-19-vaccine/covid-19-vaccine-may-impact-women-differently/

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/health/2021/04/10/covid-vaccine-women-report-more-side-effects-than-men-heres-why/7139366002/

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33916167/#&gid=article-figures&pid=figure-1-uid-0

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8037587/table/jcm-10-01441-t001/?report=objectonly

What's happening with the COVID vaccines is not at all unusual. Journal article from 2014:

Biological (ie, sex) differences as well as cultural (ie, gender) norms influence the acceptance and efficacy of vaccines for males and females. These differences are often overlooked in the design and implementation of vaccination strategies. Using seasonal and pandemic influenza vaccines, we document profound differences between the sexes in the acceptance, correlates of protection, and adverse reactions following vaccination in both young and older adults.

Females develop higher antibody responses, experience more adverse reactions to influenza vaccines, and show greater vaccine efficacy than males. Despite greater vaccine efficacy in females, both young and older females are often less likely to accept influenza vaccines than their male counterparts. Identification of the biological mechanisms, including the hormones and genes, that underlie differential responses to vaccination is necessary.

We propose that vaccines should be matched to an individual's biological sex, which could involve systematically tailoring diverse types of FDA-approved influenza vaccines separately for males and females. One goal for vaccines designed to protect against influenza and even other infectious diseases should be to increase the correlates of protection in males and reduce adverse reactions in females in an effort to increase acceptance and vaccine-induced protection in both sexes.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4157517/

[–]whateverneverpine 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Insanity. Study men to get better insight into women? No. Bad science.

[–]EveSerpent 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

At least he’s funny.