How problematic is accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man if they pass well enough? And what problems does that bring?

submitted by Tea_Or_Coffee from self.GenderCritical

In the LGBDropTheT sub, there are people who think we should accept a man as a woman, or a woman as a man, especially if they pass well enough: https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t8hy

The thread is long, so I'm highlighting a few comments:

It doesn't cost me anything to call a trans man "he", especially since many trans men do pass as males.

we can do as much as to accept them as women and men in everyday life.

I will never ask anyone to bend to their toxic ideas; I just ask to call them men and women, accordingly – and no, I'm not asking you to humor the "tree" insane lunatics or any other nonsense. Doing this much is usually enough to not be seen as a transphobe in the eyes of rational people and it should keep you safe from a ban.

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t8pj

We're not talking about some incredibly powerful foreign force that wants to redefine what you understand as your female or male view of the world. We're talking about 0.3% of population who feel like they were born in body of wrong sex and want to live a difficult life of pretending that isn't the case.

I don't demand anything. I merely ask, as I think it's a decent thing to do, in realistic situation when someone actually pass as the other sex. If some attention starved teenage girl says on her bio on Twitter that she's a boy now, but makes no effort to look like one and she cries how the world is transphobic to her, that's delusional and childish. But if someone makes an effort and looks like a woman, to get out of your way and call them a "man" just because you happen to know their biolgocial sex is an asshole move.

silencing people with censorship (something they do) is no way to acheive this, just like misgendering them (something you do) is not.

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t8qz

Trans people want to pass as their desired gender.

I don't believe they're lying at all. I think it is possible for someone to be born in body of wrong sex.

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t8rw

Prove people can't be born in the wrong sex, please. I can't wait to see your mind penetrating machine.

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t8sw

You say we can AT LEAST accept them as men and women, but that itself has caused the current issues we are in?

No, it didn't and you know this well. They have been pusing progressive and homophobic propaganda onto everyone for years, claiming that gender is the deciding factor of sexual orientation. OP of that thread fell to the very romanticized idea of "giving a chance", "being open-minded" and "looking to broad his experiences". He was manipulated into uncomfortable position (and potentially dangerous) and now both him and that trans guy are suffering because of this = a perfect proof that this propaganda should never be allowed to reach young people's mind.

I won't argue with you that it didn't go too far – of course it did. But I can recognize where their right overleaps mine and calling someone their desired pronouns in the internet argument is realistically not that.

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t92f

brain-sex is still a hotly debated topic as there is conflicting research on it. until a scientific consensus is reached, believing or not believing that "someone can be born in the wrong sexed body" is simply a matter of personal opinion at this point.

https://saidit.net/s/LGBDropTheT/comments/7sjh/agb_user_goes_on_a_date_with_a_trans_man_but/t907

Because there is no proof people can be born in the wrong sex, and there is no proof people can not be born in the wrong sex, believing people can or can not be born in the wrong body or sex is just a matter of opinion?

The commenters do not think that accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man has led to the current situation. They think that gender and sex are separate, gender is created by humans and it is possible to accept a man as a woman or a man as a woman socially without letting men in spaces of women or women in spaces of men. That it is a matter of courtesy and respect to call someone by their preferred pronouns, or consider them the gender they want to be as long as they pass as that gender. And that it would be rude, disrespectful, hateful and transphobic to call a man who passes and identifies as a woman a man, or a woman who passes and identifies as a man a woman.

They also think gender is not problematic, it does not reduce people to sexist roles because humans are realistically bags of meat. By saying gender reduces people to sexist roles we're romanticizing humanity.

So what do you think? How problematic is accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man if they pass well enough? And what problems does that bring?

Is it just a matter of opinion that people can not be born in the wrong sex or body?

Is there proof that people can not be born in the wrong sex or body?

Is it hateful, rude and disrespectful to call a man who identifies and passes as a woman a man, or a woman who identifies and passes as a man a woman?

Did accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man have any effect on what we see trans right activists do now? And what were these effects?

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[–]lefterfield 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How problematic is accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man if they pass well enough? And what problems does that bring?

There's a problem here of not being able to distinguish between the individual and the social. Do I care particularly, that Timmy transitions to Timessa and looks so much like a woman that I end up using female pronouns? Maybe I can't even tell. No, I don't care. Even if I suspect that Timessa is really a man, 99% it's not going to be worth my time to offend/start a fight with a stranger. If I CAN tell, I won't use their pronouns, though. I'll either call them a man behind their back(if it is socially safe to do so), or refer to them without ever using pronouns. But what if Timessa is my boss, and demands, on condition of employment/promotion/raises, that I must include his pronouns, or my pronouns, in an email? Even if that email isn't directed at them? The issue there is that my beliefs and my understanding - accurate understanding - of science are not being respected. I am being asked to lie, to denounce what I know of the natural world, in order to maintain a financial position. That is offensive and a violation of my rights as a human, and Timessa does not have the right to do that, no more than a boss has the right to demand employees refer to him as My Lord and Savior. What if a law is passed demanding I accept Timessa as female, even if we aren't friends and I want to choose not to associate with him(as I would)? The government is thus favoring Timessa's demands over other people's human rights. That's "problematic" to say the least.

Is it just a matter of opinion that people can not be born in the wrong sex or body?

No. If this were possible rather than being a ridiculous, illogical belief held by lunatics, there would be a way to test for it scientifically. I'm all for scientific/medical investigation into the claims of the trans cult. They're the ones who protest such studies. What do you think that indicates?

Is it hateful, rude and disrespectful to call a man who identifies and passes as a woman a man, or a woman who identifies and passes as a man a woman?

No. It is honest. It can be done in a way that IS rude, but devoid of any context: It is not rude to state one's own observations about reality.

Did accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man have any effect on what we see trans right activists do now? And what were these effects?

Accepting illogical beliefs as facts in the pursuit of "niceness" has had the effect of pushing this argument further into nonsensical demands. Once it was claimed that sex and gender were different, and we could acknowledge biological sex. Then it was that sex isn't clear cut and exceptions exist. Now many of them claim sex isn't real at all, there's only gender. Ideologues and bullies DO NOT STOP because you give in to their demands. Terrorists cannot be appeased. They will keep demanding for every victory, swearing that they'll stop threatening your jobs, your social connections, your life if you just give in, repeat the cult mantra this time. Just this time. It's rude and hateful not to, and we will destroy you if you don't. We're not asking much. Come on, give in. Just give in, and it'll be all over.

It will never be over. They will destroy all of society, kill every woman on earth before they admit that they were wrong about anything. The only way it ends is for reasonable people to say NO. We will not concede to your unreasonable demands. Not on this one, not on that one, not on ANY of it. NO. NO. HELL NO.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't care if they pass. However, don't friggin add yourself to OUR statistic and don't preach pseudoscience.

[–]our_team_is_winning 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

How well they "pass" = how well can they deceive people. Should I reward people who are good at deception?

[–][deleted] 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

Technically we reward trick or treaters.

[–]EveSerpent 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

If TIMs confined their lies and cross-dressing to one night a year only, they could have have some candy too.

But trans narcissism is a 24/7/365 assault on women, so no rewards for that.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 2 insightful - 3 fun2 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

This needs to be upvoted more.^

That's a good retort.

[–]WildApples 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is the question I struggle with. Historically, I bought into the idea of using the pronouns for people who try to pass as a kindness, but it seems like that type of kindness has only led to the craziness we have today. It creates the false perception that everyone really does agree that TWAW, which leads to the arguments that they should be able to take over our identities and spaces. And, if nothing else, it centers the feelings of the trans-identified person above everything else, which reinforces the idea that it is our duty to limit our speech and expression to maintain their comfort instead of them performing their own emotional labor.

I am on the fence. I am still sympathetic to the argument on an individual level, but on the collective level I see it exacerbating gender problems in the long run.

[–]bolla_top 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I will never really believe that they are the opposite sex, but I am willing to use the pronouns and their chosen name. I wont chant "transwomen are women," because I don't believe that, and if a transwoman looks me in the eye and asks me if I believe she is a woman, I will answer no, but I am willing to use the pronouns and whatnot and I will treat them just like anyone else.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I will answer "no", but not before making sure there's a good distance between me and the person and reading their body language for any movements indicating they will attack so I can step out of harms way.

[–]wokuspokus 4 insightful - 2 fun4 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

For someone who somewhat passes and doesn’t invade female or male spaces (TW and TM respectively) I will respect your request to be referred to as your preferred gender, as you are still respecting other people. I do not believe you are female/male (and I think trans people who still use the spaces they used before don’t believe they have actually changed sex either) but if you respect me, I am willing to tell a small lie for you.

For those intent on invading female spaces, or gay spaces, f**k em.

[–]FlippyKing 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

By "accept" to you mean patronize or pretend along with the lie?

When you ask about passing, do you mean fooling someone in some given moment in time, or do you mean when no one remarks or reacts to someone's clothing/hair/make-up? If the former then you are asking about what happens when someone gets away with a lie, if the latter the one person's passing is another seeing no reason to waste their own time.

Are you admitting that "transwomen" are not women and "transmen" are not men? If so, then just admit you accept biological reality and stop looking for red herrings because your posts clearly show that you have NOT done any work on understanding logic.

Gender is made up by people, regardless if it's biologists see it in the analogy of "sex is the hardware, gender the software", or it's kids who grew up on tumblr believing that babies come from some random pairings of humans but not all random pairings of humans. Sex is the term for reproductive roles, and it is real. If you find someone who does not fit into either one of the only two reproductive categories, that does not invalidate the categories but those people who might defy the sex categories have nothing to do with "gender".

As to your question about what effect going along with the lies has on trans rights, it obviously emboldens them because they are actually crying out, well acting out, for help and they will act out more till they get the help they need. Leave it to psychologists, if there are any real ones left, to sort out if they are aware that they are crying out for help or not. This forum and the sadly neglected "It's a fetish" forum show exactly what comes from going along with the lie, as does the Terf is a slur website.

[–]TeaAndCigarettes 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It really doesn't matter if they pass. Someone "passing" does not excuse them from accepting basic science like the fact that men and women exist. It does not excuse them from the reality that women are oppressed by men. "Passing" does not mean they get to talk over women who speak about the shitty realities they're forced to live.

If they are happy with how they present then good for them, live your best life. We can even be friends if you can respect the above. I literally ONLY get angry when my rights or my experiences are being stepped on.

[–]TheOnyxGoddess 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They should take a page from Jeffree Star, I'm not a fan of him. He might be an asshole, but he goddamn knows that he's not a woman just because he tries to dress like one.

[–]QueenBread 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How problematic is accepting a bear as a chihuahua? How problematic is accepting shit as chocolate? How problematic is accepting a kid as an adult?

I could go on.

I have a hyper realistic rat fursuit. And I mean hyperrealistic. If I look just like a giant rat will you accept me as a rat and treat me as one?

[–]MarkTwainiac 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

How problematic is accepting a man as a woman or a woman as a man if they pass well enough? And what problems does that bring?

Just want to add that I have issues with this kind of framing. Problematic for whom? What's "problematic" to one person/group might not be so problematic, or problematic at all, for another person/group. The fact that we are not all the same & of the same mind is what ideologues keep trying to erase and gloss over with their empty, BS rhetoric about "diversity & inclusion" and their use of obfuscating buzzwords like "problematic."