I started a convo on a mostly male sports board about Biden's first-day trans plans...and well here's what happened.

submitted by WrongToy from (self.GenderCritical)

Biden made trans rights a day one priority and I started the OP saying that I disagreed with both the content and the timing on this. I also put in other issues that I don't believe demand his immediate focus as the immediate focus has been for the past year the pandemic and what it's caused.

So people were like, "oh it's her, obsessed," but they still wanted to discuss it so I went into some specific areas like girls sports and prisons. I went into the BMJ study showing that after a year of cross-sex treatment, TW still run faster and stronger than women. I pointed out that in prisons the transmen DON'T want to move and the TW overwhelmingly do.

Enter this guy. He lays into me personally because he believes "people like me" are why he despite a "good resume" cannot get a job making coffee, and why "people like me" are why he only does essential shopping at 3 a.m. He also opined that he knew he was trans at 5 and if he'd only gotten the "life saving puberty blockers" that'd fix his problems instead of him wanting to commit suicide.

I'm like, uh. This is a you problem. For crying out loud, Starbucks allowed LGBT flair on the work unis even before allowing "Black Lives Matter" and you're telling me you can't get a job at Starbucks or any other place or work because I'm stopping you? And further no one with pitchforks is stopping you from shopping whenever. This is a "you" thing.

Now if I myself had opined that, the guys (it's an sports board and mostly guys) would be all over my ass but in this case, you guessed it, wounded bird syndrome. I mean, these guys are as afflicted with it that they put many handmaidens we talk about to shame.

If it's not one thing with some of these TW it's another. If THEY get their way in prisons and in girls' sports, then they'll be on saying they're dysphoric and suicidal because they don't have a period or because people reject them romantically. Or something else. I even had a spectator comment that it was akin to racism toward Black people.

This is so frustrating but as I've been involved for several years with this, I'm up for discussing it.

Any links that the community has would be helpful. When we lost r/gc I lost a whole bunch of them.

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[–]BEB 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Ah - the ol' racism argument used against single-sex spaces! Here's my retort (which is meant to be sasy and off-the-cuff and does not address the racism inherent in their line of argument, this retort is just to get men thinking about how stupid it is to compare men in women's spaces to Black women in women's spaces):

Black women can't get other women pregnant.

My other go to:

Like Black men, women can't simply change their appearance and have their oppression disappear. Women and Black men have no closet to hide in, whereas transgenders can ditch the glitter and the stilletos and VOILA - MALE PRIVILEGE in all its institutionalized glory returns!

And it's not women attacking TiMs for "living their truth" in public- MALE violence is the problem, so if you soy boys think TiMs Lives Matter, make them safe in your male spaces.

[–]GConly 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (9 children)

Every case of GD from young childhood I've seen passes reasonably well and doesn't look freakish, unlike the average agp.

Something tells me this guy just is retconning. If he's so odd looking he's afraid to go out, he probably looks like Jonathan Yaniv.

people like me" are why he despite a "good resume" cannot get a job making coffee, and why "people like me" are why he only does essential shopping at 3 a.m

We literally just don't want them in women's safe spaces and sports. When has a TERF ever attacked a TIM physically?

. I even had a spectator comment that it was akin to racism toward Black people.

It's something they have in the play book.

Point out black women are five or so times to be prisoners endangered by this crap. They also tend to excell athletically, and will suffer there too.

Then point out they don't have a size or strength advantage, and no penis to rape them with.

[–]WrongToy[S] 8 insightful - 2 fun8 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 2 fun -  (8 children)

Even Yaniv got a job in 2020. He was one of the free sample people at the liquor store. He was always about town before the pandemic eating at places, pestering kids at public pools, and of course talking about how he was going to be the next Amanda Todd if you weren't nice to him.

This guy has the same attitude.

[–]our_team_is_winning 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

He was one of the free sample people at the liquor store

What do they give free samples of at a liquor store? Is it just food like in the supermarket? Imagine putting something in your mouth off a plate JY had touched!

[–]penelopekitty 7 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 3 fun8 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

They do this in South Carolina. Generally it's Friday from 4-6 and they hire extremely attractive young women to hand out shot sized samples of whatever product they are promoting. I'm laughing my ass off thinking about JY doing this job. He must have been in his glory.

[–]WrongToy[S] 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

They got a "brand ambassadorship" that allowed them to push little Dixie-sized Bailey's cups in a liquor store.

Of course there was an uproar. Then there was the pandemic. Jon quit again.

Jon's used his time since friending 13 yos on tiktok and streaming his (nonexistent) DJ skills. He thought he met a girl (19) with a sick kid and fantasized they'd be married--despite never facetiming her. He flew three time zones to Toronto to see the girl and her kid. They had been made up. He then did a video with his mom in a hot tub claiming they were in Hawaii (they weren't) with the mom caressing his hair and kissing his neck while he stuck out his tongue. He allegedly had GRS last month and is now applying to be a UN volunteer.

[–]our_team_is_winning 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

I had no idea it was legal to hand out samples of alcohol. I wonder if that's legal in Canada but not the USA? Hmm.

I wanted to laugh at your updates about the Yaniv -- but knowing they're true gives me the creeps! Why was he hoping to marry a girl? Oh yeah, he's a lesbian (eye roll). The hot tub with mom..... Stephen King never wrote anything that disturbing.

[–]WrongToy[S] 5 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 3 fun6 insightful - 4 fun -  (2 children)

Yeah it really happened.

Step One: The "fiancee" catfishes Jon. All the pictures she sent were photoshopped compilations from the Web. Without even verifying this on Facetime, Jon hones in on the catfish who then tells Jon she's going to be in Toronto for her sick kid, and tells Jon not to come. Not only does Jon spend $2K to fly and stay there, he also brings his mother. Meanwhile someone who knew the catfish told Rebel Media who did show up and confront him. Recommended viewing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cMoLEFmRvM

Step Two: The catfish, obviously not there in the first place, ghosted him and even after coming in touch with Rebel, he goes to a place in BC, calls it Hawaii, and has this video with his mom:

https://meowtube.org/videos/Violent/Catfishing%20death%20threats.mp4

Step Three: The catfish sends Meow Mix a confessional saying she was the catfish and along with it maybe 60GB of texts, plus all the videos he sent her (she sent none back) and all the phone conversations (they were mostly VMs, she participated in one). Points of interest: Jon reveals that he has not had sex ever. He sends a receipt for a sperm bank. That's how the catfish got out, she feigned being pissed about the sperm issue saying she didn't think they were viable.

Step Four: Yaniv pivots to the fantasy that if he has GRS all will be fixed, he thinks. He undergoes the procedure 1/11 and within two weeks is Tweeting about how awesome the paramedics were that hauled him out of the bubble bath he was not supposed to have so soon. And he loves his new gynecologist.

Step Five: Yaniv will probably roll around trying to inveigle Sikh women, in particular, to wax his neo-vulva made from his former balls. Of course he'll divulge all this and some beauticians will point out that the skin is still different. Or they'll recognize his face since it's been Tweeted and YT'd millions of times. Won't matter to Jon, it'll be like "I HAVE A VAG, why aren't you waxing it?"

Step Six: Race is on between the sepsis and tears he's going to develop from shoving tampax in there and using dildos instead of dilators--and his hastening to the BCHRT with a new set of fresh complaints that don't involve waxing the actual balls, and maybe he gets them to do a media ban order, which in that case would bring us right back to 3/18 when most of us became aware of him.

[–]our_team_is_winning 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Thanks for typing all that out. You should honestly get paid for doing that (sue Yaniv for emotional distress!) Reality is worse than anything I could have dreamt up. He actually had the surgery! Sperm bank!?!?!? Yeah, like any regular woman, trying to make a deposit at the sperm bank.... For some psych grad student with a strong stomach, his case would make quite a dissertation on extreme mental illness and the role a man's mother can play in it.

[–]BEB 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I love you.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I had no idea it was legal to hand out samples of alcohol. I wonder if that's legal in Canada but not the USA? Hmm.

In the USA, each state in in charge of regulating alcohol within its borders, so there will be variations in the rules from state to state. But in lots of states, it is indeed legal for liquor stores as well as other stores that can legally sell alcohol - such as supermarkets and Costco - to give out free samples. Free wine, beer and boutique liquor tastings and samplings go on all the time in the US.

Or they did before COVID. Now most stores of all kinds have stopped the practice of giving out samples of any food or beverage, alcoholic or not.

[–]censorshipment 8 insightful - 5 fun8 insightful - 4 fun9 insightful - 5 fun -  (11 children)

I have unpopular opinions about this. I believe marginalized people should go "where they belong"... and I say this as a gnc black lesbian. If you're uncomfortable where you live, relocate. I tell lesbians and black women this online when they whine about discrimination/microaggressions/etc. I went to college to become a mechanical engineer but dropped out because I was surrounded by white men and didn't want to work in an environment with them for 40+ years. I slightly regretted my decision after watching "Hidden Figures" about the group of black women who worked at NASA in 1961, but I still wouldn't want to be the only woman nor black woman nor gay woman among men nor white people nor straight people. I want to be with my own kind. I don't understand why others don't want the same thing. Black women helped white men go to space... Integration has benefited white people far more than "others". I'm so glad I don't use my brain to benefit them.

[–]KvntXO 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Great movie. Not entirely historically accurate.

She didn't have to run across campus every day to use a colored bathroom. She used the women's facilities just like the white women in her department. There was only 1 complaint made, & it was just ignored. As I understand it, at NASA, everyone was just there to work. Of course systemic racism existed, but the lady herself said in an interview that it wasn't in your face thing at work.

A few other things were hyperbolic for the movie. Everytime I watch a historical movie or tv show, I research it. Still a good movie. Very much enjoyed it.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (2 children)

I know. I always check https://www.historyvshollywood.com/ (https://www.historyvshollywood.com/reelfaces/hidden-figures/). But that's besides the point... black women were working there, being used, to help white men go to space. Would've been better for them not to be there at all.

[–]SilenceThem_Consume 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

black women were working there, being used, to help white men go to space.

There were HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of proud americans working on the space projects, and most of them would never be in a two hour movie nor want to be, it was a "small step for MANKIND," and paved the way for astronauts of all backgrounds to research in space.

Would've been better for them not to be there

I went to college to become a mechanical engineer but dropped out because I was surrounded by white men and didn't want to work in an environment with them... I still wouldn't want to be the only woman nor black woman nor gay woman among men nor white people nor straight people. I want to be with my own kind. I don't understand why others don't want the same thing. Black women helped white men go to space... Integration has benefited white people far more than "others".

This sounds pretty low-key racist. People should be free to follow whatever career paths they want to. Intimating that minority women shouldnt have worked at nasa 'because it helps white men' is ABSURDLY reductionist and ignores the ENTIRE point of the space race. Protip: it wasnt SOLELY to 'help white men', just as affirmative action wasn't "solely to help black men". But you sound very ignorant on the space race itself, so I will leave it at that.

Winning the race had far reaching implications for our country that we are still seeing the effects of today, simplifying it down to 'help white man' is hilariously ignorant and bad history.

You may have been alive back then, but you know nothing about the era.

Lol, and I get silenced by the mods for defending the 400,000 other americans who helped us get into space.

White people got to go to space first. Why? White supremacy.

Your post is delusional.

[–]censorshipment 2 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 3 fun3 insightful - 4 fun -  (0 children)

White people got to go to space first. Why? White supremacy.

[–]our_team_is_winning 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I want to be with my own kind.

I feel torn about that. I think it's human nature to be comfortable with people who are most similar, mostly your family -- but then I'm uncomfortable with most of my family!

I was close friends with a young man from the Middle East who was studying engineering (this was last year) and he said most of the professors (at his university in the USA) were from India and would give higher grades to Indian students and show bias agains the Arab students, so he was really angry that he'd come to the USA to study -- discrimination goes on no matter what groups are involved. Whoever has the power seems to favor their own, I guess. We're so used to hearing about or experiencing black and white, male and female, and when you remove black, white, and female from the equation, there's still discrimination. His experience really hit me.

And it makes me think even the Trans Lobby will turn more on itself when they don't have a common external enemy (women) -- I guess they already do with "Truscum" and those other divisions they've got.

To OP: Narcissists and "Eternal Victims" will always be there to abuse and bully people who don't parrot what they want to hear. It's very draining on the person speaking truth. Don't drain your energy for one selfish person online though. Save it for the bigger battle against those making anti-woman policy, I guess. Not like they'll listen though.

[–]censorshipment 4 insightful - 7 fun4 insightful - 6 fun5 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

FFS, I don't want to read about discrimination against a man. This is why I'm so extra in being anti-men because you all casually show empathy for them. Someone has to be on the opposite end of the man-loving to man-hating spectrum. I'm black, and I don't whine in women's spaces about black men being murdered by white cops. Not one mention of George Floyd (until now). I don't give a fuck about men.

[–]our_team_is_winning 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

My point was just that whoever has the upperhand will often favor others like them, no matter the groupings involved.

[–]Comatoast 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I've got a guyfriend that's a mechanical engineer. He worked at a few different businesses over the years, but ultimately ended up starting up his own business. You would likely still have to deal with white dudes, but it would be on your own terms where you have the upperhand. Plus, that's rolemodel material for young black girls, or fucking honestly any girls to see women in fields like these finding ways to get to be passionate about your profession AND let them know that they don't have to kowtow forever in male-centric environments. I hope you found something else you're happy with at least, or a happier work environment.

[–]censorshipment 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (1 child)

I'm too mentally disordered to be self-employed. I'd quit like I've done at all of my jobs, but I worked the best with other black women.

[–]Comatoast 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I get it, and if that's what works you've found a best case scenario coworker setting for yourself.

[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do you think women across the board shouldn't have gone to any formerly all-male schools and grad programs; shouldn't have entered jobs, positions, professions that traditionally have been entirely or mostly male; should never have started participating in male-dominated sports and sporting events (like distance running and marathons); should never have entered politics, never aimed for SCOTUS and POTUS, etc?

[–]Spicylikegumbo 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Well Black Lives Matter is a transgender affirming movement. No lie. One of their principles is called Transgender affirming and it aims to "dismantle cisgender privilege." Now transgenders can definitely point to something and go, "See our struggles and black people's struggles are the same." Honestly all those people that feel oppressed need to seek therapy and stop expecting everyone to accommodate their insecurities and failures.

[–]mildsalsa 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

FYI Even trans people are divided on what to do about sports. Trans women who are on hormone therapy are going to lose to men, but they temporarily retain a advantage over cis women. It's a sucky situation for everyone.

I really don't know how to resolve this issue. An outright ban would be devastating to the many trans athletes who compete on a level playing field, but there's no clear criteria that determines when there is minimal to no advantage left for trans women.

Just my two cents

[–]BEB 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I don't get why the discussion surrounding trans athletes should have anything to do with women. It's simply not our problem.

I was a supremely poor athlete on my high school and university teams, but I had to train like hell just to be on the team. Like all the other women on my teams, I put in hours of grueling training a day, for years.

Why should I give up my place on the team because of another person's sense of mismatch between brain and body?

Especially when that other person's body will beat mine handily no matter how many puberty blockers and hormones he's pumped into it?

There is one way to resolve this issue: transgenders play against other transgenders. If there's not enough of them, well, tough. Better their devastation than mine.

Women do not exist to wipe up men's tears.

[–]penelopekitty 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (6 children)

The advantage of male puberty, larger lungs and heart, more fast twitch muscle fibers, different skeletal structure and larger hands and feet never goes away. Sports are sex segregated. I don't care what your "gender" is. Also, calling women "cis" is highly offensive. Very few women identify with the stereotypes associated with their sex. We are women. Period.

[–]MarkTwainiac 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

Just to clarify: the advantages that males have that matter in athletics don't just start with puberty in adolescence. In adolescent puberty, the advantages males have over females become enormous and glaringly obvious, impossible to overlook, but males have advantages that affect sports performance before then too.

Part of this is coz the puberty of adolescence is the second puberty that occurs in a child's life. In the first six months after birth, babies go through a four-five month period (usually from the end of the first month post birth until or into the six month) known as the mini-puberty of infancy. During this time, male babies have testosterone levels at the same levels they will have in the puberty of adolescence. Which is one of the reasons male babies grow faster and are larger and heavier than female babies - a fact long tacitly confirmed by the use of two different charts to gauge babies' physical growth, weight and height, one for males and another for females.

Male children have larger hearts and lungs, higher hemoglobin, better blood oxygenation (and other features) from infancy - not just from the puberty of adolescence. Which is probably amongst the reasons why cystic fibrosis, a genetic disease that occurs equally frequently in both sexes, has a different trajectory depending on a patient's sex: while no one with CF can be said to have good health or a long lifespan compared to people without CF, compared to females with the disease born the same year and with access to the same treatment, males with CF generally are less sickly and live longer.

Also, scientists researching embryos and embryonic stem cells have recently reported that sex differences are evident in the cells of human zygotes at 6-7 days after fertilization; and sex differences can be seen in human embryos prior to the development of male or female gonads (usually in the 7th week) and thus prior to when embryos begin making sex hormones. Many sex differences that long have been assumed to be the product of sex hormones are turning out to predate them and to be independent of them.

Little League - which starts as early as age four - is a good indication of the athletic advantages male children have prior to puberty. LL has been co-ed since 1974. Yet it remains very male-dominated. 7 out of every 8 kids in LL are male. The vast majority of boys in LL play baseball, whereas most girls play softball. Moreover, starting at age four through the late teens, males in LL now have their own male-only softball division. Coz of sex differences that affect performance.

Since LL became co-ed nearly 50 years ago, more than 11,000 boys have made it to the LL Baseball World Series, and only 19 girls.

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Would you consider sending this research to Abigail Shrier - her email address is on her Twitter?

[–]MarkTwainiac 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yes! I already have written her in the past to provide info I hope she'll find useful. I have a draft of a letter to her about the sports stuff you and I have discussed here this week - just waiting for some feedback on how it sounds/comes off. (When it comes to important emails, I always have other people look 'em over to make sure I haven't struck the wrong tone or said something that might be off-putting or sound rude or nutty.) I'm only a rash hothead on here, LOL.

[–]BEB 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Has she responded to you in the past?

[–]WrongToy[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yeah, the TIM was saying if everyone just got puberty blockers, problem solved because none of that matters before puberty.

He also thinks puberty blockers are benign.

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

All they have to do is type in "puberty blockers" and "side effects."

Lupron, a puberty blocker used in the US, was developed as an advanced prostate cancer drug and is used to castrate sex offenders. "Harmless," indeed!

[–]MarkTwainiac 9 insightful - 1 fun9 insightful - 0 fun10 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

they temporarily retain a advantage over cis women. It's a sucky situation for everyone.

Uh, no males who ID as trans do not "temporarily retain an advantage" over females. They retain many permanent advantages. The physical advantages male people have over female people that matter in sports can't be reversed or eliminated no matter how much estrogen they take and no matter how low they get their testosterone. The male advantages remain even if they remove their testicles entirely.

I really don't know how to resolve this issue. An outright ban would be devastating to the many trans athletes who compete on a level playing field

Please provide evidence - links to scientific research - showing that male "trans athletes" who have invaded female sports "compete on a level playing field."

No one is saying ban TIMs from sports. They are perfectly free to participate and compete - with and against members of their own sex.

Also, please on this sub don't call girls and women "cis." Many of us consider it an extremely offensive slur. Thanks.

[–]SilenceThem_Consume 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Trans women who are on hormone therapy are going to lose to men

And nothing changes ;)

[–]BEB 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And again (and I'm not asking you, I'm asking the people who want TiMs to be able to play sports against women) what does men who voluntarily alter their bodies and thus losing to other men have to do with women?

If a boy with that condition in which you have a burning desire to amputate body parts, chops off some of his toes, reducing his ability to run fast, does that mean that girls should have to accommodate him in their races, especially if he's still faster? He's willfully mutilated his own body and that is not our problem.

I see no difference with hormones and puberty blockers. These boys took them voluntarily. These boys can't expect the world to cater to them, and they especially can't expect a group traditionally marginalized in sports, women, to lose sporting opportunities as a result of boys wanting to "live their truth."

[–]TheBeefBenson 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Was it r/soccer? Because that place is really heavily brigaded by people who don't actually like sports. I'd say that reddit co actually employs shills to make sure no wrong think is going on in male dominated subs. As the average working men (the kind who actually like sports) tend to call a spade a spade on most issues.

[–]WrongToy[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Nah, it's an old school BB NFL board.