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[–]MarkTwainiac 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (10 children)

We weren't talking about sports, we were talking about the definition of biological sex - male and female - which in all plant and animals across the board is determined by whether a person, animal or plant has anatomy organized around the potential capacity to produce either ova or sperm at some point in life.

In humans and other species, gametes come from gonads, and female gonads are ovaries, male gametes are testes. The fact that someone has CAIS doesn't turn that person's testes into ovaries. Phenotypically, persons with CAIS appear female, and socially most are seen and treated as such. But from a strict biological point of view, they are male coz they have male gonads even though their male gonads can't make sperm.

As biologists define sex, the presence of organs like a uterus and clitoris is not key, coz a lot of sexually-reproducing animals do not gestate young within their bodies, nor have the females developed the capacity for sexual pleasure the way humans have. In birds, for example, eggs are fertilized inside the female's body, but then the female lays her eggs and they gestate and hatch outside the female body. Some other animals lay eggs first, and the male fertilizes them afterwards, outside the body. What's more, a lot of sexually-reproducing organisms are plants, not animals.

Sexual reproduction is actually very varied, but it always involves the merging of a female gamete with a male gamete. And again, male and female gametes come from male or female gonads. I don't think that it's correct to say someone with male sex chromosomes and male gonads is biologically female. Socially, they can be viewed as girls and women, but not biologically. But this is something perhaps it's best to just agree we disagree on and leave it at that.

Since you brought up sports, I don't think it's true, as you claim, that XY individuals

with CAIS have lungs, heart size, bone density, and even most of skeletal structure - same as any female without DSD, so they have no advantage in strenght or speed, so should be same as women without DSD in sports (they may even have disadvantages, as they will lack muscle memory).

Actually, we don't know this, coz very little research has been done either on the athletic performance of either normal XX female bodies or on the bodies of XY people with AIS.

However, it is well known that due to their XY chromosomes individuals with CAIS tend to be noticeably taller than XX women - and height is indeed an advantage in many competitive sports. Moreover, persons with CAIS, particularly those who still have their testes, actually appear to have differences in such factors as bone mineral density, metabolism, cardiovascular risk, BMI, etc that set them apart from both males and females with normal or typical development. Some of these differences might give them athletic advantages over XX competitors in sports, some might not. The full picture isn't clear.

Furthermore, it is clear that in elite-level female athletics, whose participants tend to be young or youngish, XY persons with CAIS are actually WAY over-represented, and they generally perform better than XX athletes - but for reasons that seem to have nothing to do with testosterone and have yet to be elucidated.

According to biologist Emma Hilton, who has studied this at some length,

The frequency of CAIS in the general population is 1 in 20,000. The frequency of CAIS in female athlete cohorts is 1 in 420. CAIS is nearly 50 times more prevalent in female athletes than in female couch potatoes. This is a massive overrepresentation.

CAIS females succeed as athletes way more often than non-CAIS females. How puzzling that the only thing the IOC asserts confers sporting advantage is functionally absent in these females with clear sporting advantage.

Whatever underpins CAIS female sporting advantage, it is independent of functional T.

https://twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1070097776665608193

Also, can you explain why persons with CAIS would "lack muscle memory" as you say?

Finally, I got the impression that at the end of your post you were saying that if person with CAIS got a uterus transplant - as well as the transplant of at least one ovary - they theoretically should be able to sustain a pregnancy coz their brains would cause them to produce all the hormones needed for pregnancy in just the right amount. And presumably their brains - or genetics - would arrange for them do a vast number of other things necessary to sustain a pregnancy as well, such as growing a placenta and developing the same kidney function as XX people have.

But what is known is that persons with CAIS do not have female hormone profiles, and when they get their testes removed and take female hormones they tend not to fare well if the hormones are dosed to give them levels that XX females typically have:

Interestingly, patients with CAIS seem to have a different hormonal status that does not follow a physiological male or female profile. In particular, postpubertal CAIS patients with intact gonads show increased levels of LH with normal levels of FSH and of sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) for the female range; moreover, basal testosterone and oestradiol values, free androgen indices and androgen aromatization indices are in the normal male range. Increased levels of LH, despite testosterone levels, may be attributable to the role of androgen resistance in the normal negative feedback action carried out by androgens on the hypothalamus-hypophysis axis. Thus, Doenhert et al. (2015) suggested the use of a lower dose of HRT in patients with CAIS after gonadectomy, seeing that these patients follow neither a female nor male hormone pattern and that levels of oestrogen are normally below the female range before gonadectomy. This could partially explain the reported reduced wellbeing with doses of current classic HRT [meaning exogenous female sex hormones in doses to match the levels/range of these hormones normally found in XX individuals].

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6480640/

Note that in the hormone profile there is no mention of HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - which is known as "the pregnancy hormone" coz of its key role especially in the first 11 weeks, nor of progesterone, another key female hormone that is essential to pregnancy and is highly elevated during pregnancy. The adrenal glands of both females and males can produce some progesterone, but they can't produce progesterone in the amounts needed to sustain a pregnancy - only ovaries can. But even ovaries can't produce HCG - only a placenta that a woman has begun growing at the start of pregnancy can.

There have been case reports of ovarian transplants/grafts from various medical centers, but only in XX women. And the ovarian tissue transplanted either were the women's own originally healthy ovaries that had been removed and frozen prior to cancer treatment - then put back in the body later on, or they came from the women's own sisters (identical twin sisters in the majority cases, genetically different sisters in a very small minority). Generally speaking, it appears that removing and freezing a woman's own ovaries, then putting them or parts of them back in her body later, is much more successful than transplanting ovaries or ovarian tissue from another woman.

I have not found any information on PubMed or Google Scholar showing that uterine or ovarian transplants have ever been tried in persons with CAIS. Only one report that at one medical center 10 individuals with CAIS applied for inclusion in a uterine transplant "project" - but what that project entailed and whether the CAIS applicants were accepted is not clear. I also haven't found any evidence to support your claim that

even if woman with CAIS can't get uterus transplant and gestate, the rest of her body is developed to support it, even if it fails on doing so.

Then again, perhaps I missed the evidence. If you could provide some links, I'd appreciate it. Thanks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5375051/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6685107/

https://obgyn.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jog.12486

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 3 fun -  (9 children)

We weren't talking about sports, we were talking about the definition of biological sex - male and female - which in all plant and animals across the board is determined by whether a person, animal or plant has anatomy organized around the potential capacity to produce either ova or sperm at some point in life.

In humans and other species, gametes come from gonads, and female gonads are ovaries, male gametes are testes. The fact that someone has CAIS doesn't turn that person's testes into ovaries. Phenotypically, persons with CAIS appear female, and socially most are seen and treated as such. But from a strict biological point of view, they are male coz they have male gonads even though their male gonads can't make sperm.

Their bodies still developed to support ova, not sperm. They do have male gonads, but they lacking everything else to support sperm production. While everything else is similar to a body that is supposed to produce ova. They have female phenotype, female hormonal reaction and levels (as androgens are ignored by body and converted into estrogen), female body structure, only male they have are chromosomes and testes. Even medicine they are prescribed is similar to female one. Prescribing them same one as to males and putting them on male control can be deadly to them. I almost died from heart attack, as only doctor was there only had experience with male heart attacks - same will be with woman with CAIS if she will be marked as "male", she can die in this case. So they have 3 of 5 points being female (so 60%, majority), with body mostly responding as female body, so I see no reasoning saying that they are male - it can be harmful to their health. Much better for medical and cosial practices will call them females with CAIS. As it will make less mistakes to be made and will make less risk to their lives.

Plus lets not forget that some women with CAIS have their ovaries not completely destroyed by anti-müllerian hormone, but that is very rare.

taller

I am not sure about this, most I've seen were actually smaller women, as they are not that responsive to testosterone. Maybe it is because I am from country with very tall women (average 167-168 cm for all ages and 172 cm for 30 years old or younger). I am 158 cm and I never met woman my height or shorter (except my mother). So not sure if that is the case or not. Three I've met online were 162 cm and two 165 cm. One that I've met personally was 166 cm - same as my sister.

In general, it needs more research, but unlike TW or 5ARD/PAIS/etc, even if there will be some advantage, it will be too small comparing to other cases.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 1 insightful - 5 fun1 insightful - 4 fun2 insightful - 5 fun -  (8 children)

CAIS are male and should be treated as male. I don't care if they have boobies and "pass as" women on the outside. CAIS have no uterus, no ovaries - no internal female sex organ. They are not female on the inside.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_androgen_insensitivity_syndrome#Physical

The gonads [in CAIS] are not ovaries, but instead, are testes; during the embryonic stage of development, testes form in an androgen-independent process that occurs due to the influence of the SRY gene on the Y chromosome.

Immature sperm cells in the testes do not mature past an early stage, as sensitivity to androgens is required in order for spermatogenesis to complete

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/androgen-insensitivity-syndrome/symptoms/

CAIS do not have a womb or ovaries

They have testes, and even if their testes don't produce sperm, dysfunctional testes don't make a male less of a male.

Their nonexistent ovaries make them female but their existing testes don't make them male just because they don't produce sperm? Lmfao. Who do you think you're foolin'?

CAIS should be treated as male at best, a hermaphrodite at worst. They have both testes and some dysfunctional external female genitals, so hermaphrodite.

They would be both male and female at worst. Case closed.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

I see no reason why anyone should be attacking people with complex medical condition for no reason at all, instead of helping them to bear with it. They are extremely rare condition, there can be just 1-2 of them in whole European country. Other AIS are much more common, but they aren't ambigious at all.

Plus they have nothing to do at all with all the "unambigiously males calling themselves women". Focusing on so extremely rare conditions, instead of adressing main issue - is helping gender ideology, as instead of adressing the real important points, we are adressing some almost inexistant cases which are happening so rarely and which are very ambigious and have absolutely nothing to do with the discussion. If all people in the whole world with DSD ("intersex") would call themselves transgender - they would be just 10% of transgender people in USA alone.

They have testes

Not always. Plus those testes are inner and not visible, thought. They are finding out about them only at around age of 14-16, when diagnosed with amenorrhea in more advanced countries and at age of around 25-30, when they already married and trying to find out why they are infertile. In less advanced countries they never diagnosed and never know that they have DSD condition.

Their condition is not researched too deeply, as their body is developed like it couldo support ova and it is not supporting sperm (at least in most cases, unlike other AIS conditions, where they are clearly male). Their inner organs are places on a way that female people have. It is never researched about other difference between males and females, on which side they are. Also, they were never tested if they will support ova or sperm. So we can't say for sure if they are male or female until this will be tested.

And in healthcare they are not having same risks as other males, thought not fully as females either.

a hermaphrodite at worst.

There are no human hermaphrodites and can't exist. Also it will be a slur.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 6 insightful - 5 fun6 insightful - 4 fun7 insightful - 5 fun -  (6 children)

I see no reason why anyone should be attacking people with complex medical condition for no reason at all, instead of helping them to bear with it. They are extremely rare condition, there can be just 1-2 of them in whole European country. Other AIS are much more common, but they aren't ambigious at all.

You don't know the number of DSD cases and can not claim they are rare when noone bothers with running DNA tests, MRI, etc on the majority of the population.

Not always. Plus those testes are inner and not visible, thought. They are finding out about them only at around age of 14-16, when diagnosed with amenorrhea in more advanced countries and at age of around 25-30, when they already married and trying to find out why they are infertile. In less advanced countries they never diagnosed and never know that they have DSD condition.

Their condition is not researched too deeply, as their body is developed like it couldo support ova and it is not supporting sperm (at least in most cases, unlike other AIS conditions, where they are clearly male). Their inner organs are places on a way that female people have. It is never researched about other difference between males and females, on which side they are. Also, they were never tested if they will support ova or sperm. So we can't say for sure if they are male or female until this will be tested.

If their condition is not studied deeply, you can not claim that they are women, or that their body is developed to support ova. You don't know anything would be the conclusion.

I believe their condition is studied enough. "Not always" is nonsense. They have no ovaries, therefore their bodies are not developed to support ova.

They have testes on the inside, yes. Just because they aren't visible to the eyes doesn't mean they are not men. Are you going to claim you're not human because your genes are not visible to the eyes? You sound like TRAs. "Omg genitals are not visible to the eyes. They're under clothes. How can they determine sex11".

In less advanced countries they never diagnosed and never know that they have DSD condition

All CAIS would know they are not women at some point. They have no ovaries, uteruses, etc. They have testes.

Their bodies are developed to support sperm, not ova. It was supposed to support sperm, and it failed.

CAIS can not get periods. Once they hit puberty, they will be aware of their maleness. Unless you claim they are so mentally challenged they don't know women get periods, and they don't.

There are no human hermaphrodites and can't exist. Also it will be a slur.

It's easier to call CAIS hermaphrodite than whatever nonsense you spout about their bodies supporting ova eventhough they have no female sex organ on the inside.

Words aren't innately "offensive". Don't care if DSD individuals are offended by "hermaphrodite". It's a perfect description. CAIS are disordered hermaphrodites.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

If their condition is not studied deeply, you can not claim that they are women, or that their body is developed to support ova. You don't know anything would be the conclusion.

You have no idea what you are talking about. There are DSD conditions where males have ovaries, yet they can father a child, but not childbirth. You are very confused.

CAIS can not get periods. Once they hit puberty, they will be aware of their maleness.

You do realize how many women have amenorrhea untreated? When they are asking for tests and being neglected and called just infertile without any more tests? I was called "frigid" for being a lesbian and not liking men, instead of doing any research, my mother almost died because when her periods stopped at age of 35, she just was told "it is early menopuase", while in reality it was completely different issue that could be found out by just few simple tests. Also, many other women would not have periods or would be infertile - who do not have DSD conditions. Why are you combining "intersex" conditions with infertile women and justifying one by another? I only saw such tactics from TRA so far.

I have a strong feeling that you are a male or pretty rich/privileged female, as you seems to have no idea about female anatomy and female problems with healthcare treatment we are receiving.

It's easier to call CAIS hermaphrodite

But it will be untrue and will not work for healthcare at all. This word describes completely different thing. Why you want to lie, when above you said you are doing this because "you don't want to lie"? You are contradicting yourself.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 3 insightful - 5 fun3 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 5 fun -  (4 children)

There are DSD conditions where males have ovaries, yet they can father a child, but not childbirth. You are very confused.

What kind of DSDs? Care to name this DSD in which a male has ovaries AND testes? Hmm?

Also, many other women would not have periods or would be infertile - who do not have DSD conditions. Why are you combining "intersex" conditions with infertile women and justifying one by another? I only saw such tactics from TRA so far.

Infertile women have ovaries, and no testes. If they meet with a doctor, a few tests, and boom, they learn they are infertile.

CAIS are not infertile. They have no female sex organ on the inside at all.

I have a strong feeling that you are a male or pretty rich/privileged female, as you seems to have no idea about female anatomy and female problems with healthcare treatment we are receiving.

Sweatie, I'm a woman in the middle of a "third world country", and the people here are still not mentally challenged enough to let someone be if they can not start their periods.

But it will be untrue and will not work for healthcare at all. This word describes completely different thing. Why you want to lie, when above you said you are doing this because "you don't want to lie"? You are contradicting yourself.

Hermaphrodite means an organism has both male and female sex organs.

CAIS have dysfunctional testes, aka male sex organ, and "vaginal" opening and labia, that's it.

CAIS are male. I called them hermaphrodite because you lie they are women when they aren't. If you're going to claim they are women, I'm going to call them at worst a hermaphrodite, a disordered hermaphrodite, with dysfunctional sex organs of both sexes.

[–]VioletRemi 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Ovotesticular DSD and PMDS, for example.

Infertile women have ovaries, and no testes.

Not all have ovaries or were born with ovaries.

If they meet with a doctor, a few tests, and boom, they learn they are infertile.

Even if they are fertile, and their amenorrhea comes from other way. In many cases no tests are done, just "no periods for long time" is enough.

Someone with CAIS can be treated just same way, without any extra testings.

Hermaphrodite means an organism has both male and female sex organs.

Not sex organs, but both gonads, both working gonades.

Hermaphrodite is an organism that can both father a child and give a childbirth.

Also, CAIS do not have both sex organs - they have none of sex organs. They may have male gonades, but not always. Have you even read a bit about CAIS condition?

And why are you want to call slurs an extremely small minority of people that almost no one ever will even meet? I don't understand your hatred. All you write on this site is how you hate vaccines and how you hate people with CAIS (also, there are XX females with CAIS too, who have cervixes and can give birth).

CAIS have dysfunctional testes

In most cases they are functional or they are absent completely. You hate people while being completely ignorant about who they are or their condition.

I see no reason to discuss anything anymore with you.

[–]HOWABOUTNO 4 insightful - 5 fun4 insightful - 4 fun5 insightful - 5 fun -  (0 children)

Ovotesticular DSD and PMDS, for example.

Which is why people with Ovotesticular DSDs and PMDS are hermaphrodites. They have the gonads of both sexes.

https://rarediseases.org/rare-diseases/ovotesticular-disorder-of-sex-development/

Ovotesticular disorder of sex development (ovotesticular DSD) is a very rare disorder in which an infant is born with the internal reproductive organs (gonads) of both sexes (female ovaries and male testes).

...

Not sex organs, but both gonads, both working gonades.

Hermaphrodite is an organism that can both father a child and give a childbirth.

No. Just as females with disorders can not "give childbirth" and males with disorders can not "father children", but they are still female and male respectively, a hermaphrodite whose both organs are not functional is a hermaphrodite, albeit a disordered hermaphrodite.

And why are you want to call slurs an extremely small minority of people that almost no one ever will even meet? I don't understand your hatred. All you write on this site is how you hate vaccines and how you hate people with CAIS (also, there are XX females with CAIS too, who have cervixes and can give birth).

I was talking about XY CAIS.

And again, how on earth do you know they are a small minority one does not meet if doctors don't run tests on the majority of the population to make sure they have DSDs or not? You can't see inside bodies with eyes. There should be tests.

In most cases they are functional or they are absent completely

In all cases, they have the testes. And even if they were absent, which I never read anywhere, and you're pulling out of nowhere, it would mean they have no ovaries, uterus, testes, etc. They still wouldn't be female. They would have no sex.