An Australian bill criminalizing ‘conversion therapy’ may harm kids deemed ‘trans’ as well as those who treat them

submitted by BiologyIsReal from feministcurrent.com

all 6 comments
sorted by:
top
newinsightfulfun

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

During the 1960s to 1980s, the term “transsexual” referred to a small number of men who wanted to live as women. [...] most transitioned, meaning they had sex reassignment surgery to make their bodies as close to female bodies as surgery and medicine (particularly cross-sex hormones) could achieve. This was a very small group of men, and because there was a lot of discrimination against them at the time and a lot of them desired to pass as female, it made sense to give this group legal protections as the opposite sex. After all, some would be assumed to be women due to their appearance, and it could be damaging for those people to have to “out” themselves as transsexuals in cases requiring identity documents.

It never made sense. Surely there were better ways to fight discrimination than enabling their fantasies and lies. I don't think transgenderism could have arisen if it not were beccause of some doctors that invented transsexualism. I don't think the policy of "treating" trans identified children with puberty blocker, cross-sex hormones and/or surgeries would have been possible if "medical transition" hadn't been done -and established as the best treatment for gender dysphoria- on adults first.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

It's also not true that there was a huge amount of discrimination against early male transsexuals from the 1950s through 80s.

Christine Jorgensen, a gay male transsexual former US soldier who went trans in the 1950s, was treated very favorably in the Western media. In fact, most of the press coverage and public reception Jorgensen received was positively fawning. It made Jorgensen a celebrity.

Also very favorably treated by the press and public were the famous 70s era transsexuals Jan James Morris and Renee Richards/Richard Raskin - both of whom were straight men presumably with AGP who went trans in midlife after being married to women and fathering children (five in Morris's case, one in Richards).

Neither Morris, an esteemed British historian and writer from a very privileged background that included prestigious and pricey private all-male schools, nor Richards, an American opthamologist and award-winning athlete from an equally privileged background and costly, prestigious, private all-male schooling, suffered any career consequences for going trans. These two men's already successful careers didn't skip a beat; in fact, these two men only became more acclaimed.

Morris wrote an international bestseller about his transition, "Conundrum," published in 1974, and went on to receive many honors and awards. His articles continued to appear in whatever prestigious outlets he submitted them to and his books were sought after by publishers; no one ever refused to publish him or tried to cancel him the way it's happening to feminists today. In fact, in the 70s and 80s, Morris was often sought out by the press to comment on "women's lib."

In 1976, Richards sued US professional tennis authorities for the right to play women's pro tennis, and in 1977 he won! Since the 1980s, Richards has coached Martina Navratilova and been accepted and lionized in elite tennis circles whilst remaining an esteemed eye doctor with a fancy practice in NYC.

How the hell does what any of these men experienced amount to discrimination?

Back in the 50s through 80s, gay male transvestites, transsexuals and cross-dressers from disadvantaged backgrounds and minority races might have experienced lots of discrimination - coz of homophobia, racism, class prejudice, socioeconomic disadvantages and limited jobs opportunities, the last of which often had to do as much with their lack of education and skills as with the prejudices of others. And coz of lot of these guys were clearly mentally ill and anti-social, just as so many TIMs are today.

Sure, a lot of white heterosexual male cross-dressers and transsexuals with AGP back then - many of whom were also mentally ill and anti-social - probably felt discriminated against. But this could have been coz they were arrogant narcissists who took anything other than constant praise and always getting their own way as "invalidation," "harm," "oppression" and "discrimination." The way TRAs today say that "misgendering (them) is violence."

But the majority of men back then who "transitioned" were well off, privileged white men coz only well-off, privileged white men could afford to get "sex change" surgeries, which usually required going abroad (Jorgensen had his surgeries in Denmark, Morris and Raksin/Richards had theirs in the Casablanca clinic of Georges Burou that from the late 50s to late 80s was the place men from around the world went to get "sex change" surgeries.) Yes, a lot of these men were looked askance at, and probably laughed at behind their backs. But they were not an especially discriminated against group. Especially when compared to women and other groups who suffered real discrimination like racial minorities.

I'd wager that most of the so-called "discrimination" these men experienced was in their minds. And consisted of the same sorts of things that are called "discrimination" and "hate" today - being clocked as men, being given side-eye or dirty looks, being referred to as he/him, being refused sexually, being told "no" by women.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

because there was a lot of discrimination against them at the time and a lot of them desired to pass as female, it made sense to give this group legal protections as the opposite sex.

Just want to add here that since I've debunked the claim made in the first part of this statement, regarding the discrimination these men supposedly experienced but in actuality did not, then the next part falls apart too. No, it never made sense to give this group legal protections as the opposite sex. Especially when you take into account the impact on the opposite sex.

To the credit of Renee Richards/Richard Raskin, he now says he was wrong to have sued for the right to compete in women's tennis. He says anyone who has gone through male puberty still retains enormous sporting advantages over females that castrating surgeries and years of cross-sex hormones won't eliminate. Given that he now thinks it unfair even for males who've had their testicles removed to compete in women's sports, I imagine he'd be against letting in the current crop of TIMs, who nearly all keep their genitals intact and fatuously argue that taking medication to lower their T for a time removes their physical advantages.

Also, after Jan James Morris recently died at age 94, it was revealed that years ago he stopped claiming and believing that he had become a woman. He said he felt was in some vague middle place, neither here nor there. Interestingly, it also came out in his obituaries that he preferrred to be referred to as the aunt of the five children he fathered.

One interesting thing I learnt after Morris died is that several years ago a prominent UK newspaper asked one of Morris's adult sons to write an article about his "mum." The assigning editor meant the piece to be about the James Jan, the biological father and big-shot writer and historian who'd made his career doing things no woman could do at the time (traveling solo throughout the Islamic world, climbing Everest with an all-male expedition led by Edmund Hillary) whilst his wife stayed home having and raising their five children. But the son instead wrote about his actual mother, and showed how it was she who singlehandedly raised the kids while Jan James selfishly pursued his career ambitions traveling the world and often being psychologically absent when he was at home. One Christmas Jan James couldn't even be bothered to go downstairs to join his wife and children for the festivities or the elaborate dinner the Mrs cooked coz Jan James was too busy locked in his study working on a book.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Thanks for the needed context. You're always posting very detailled answers and are knowledgeable about a variety of subjects. I've read a lot about transgenderism these past months, but not so much about old school transsexuals. I wasn't sure how transsexuals were received at first, so I chose to give them the benefict of the doubt since I don't think accepting the premise that they were discriminated against justify undermining women's rights, anyway. It seems like despite my skepticism I've taken some of trans claims at face value.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

You can't take any of the claims that trans cracktivists make at face value.

BTW, in the 1960s and 70s, there were several very sympathetic portrayals of males who went "trans" in major English-language novels by prominent male authors, such as Gore Vidal's "Myra Breckenridge" from 1968 and the Roberta Muldoon character in John Irving's huge international bestseller from 1978, "The World According to Garp." (Hit movies were made out of both books.)

And of course, male transvestism/transsexualism was depicted in a very accepting, albeit somewhat humorous way, in the Kinks' hit "Lola" from 1970. What's more, being transvestites sure didn't hurt Lou Reed and many other rockers and avant garde artists in the 60s and 70s.

The UK artist Grayson Perry, now age 60, has been a very out, in-your-face heterosexual "tranny" for 40 years now. And whilst he's always been very up front that he dresses like a woman coz it gives him a stiffy and he finds it incredibly sexually arousing, no one has ever discriminated against him - much less less assaulted or verbally attacked him - as a result. On the contrary, he's one of the most acclaimed artists in Britain and the US. His art shows are all hugely successful, he's been honored by the Queen, and given awards and positions by many august organizations. Perry has written best-selling books, been hired to make numerous documentaries, and he's hosted a whole bunch of TV shows. He's accompanied Kate the Duchess of Cambridge to events in schools for young children - and when he's done so, he has dressed in his full-on fetish outfits.

How does any of this amount to discrimination?

[–]PassionateIntensity 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

They're deliberately creating trans kids with medical intervention who would have grown up gay or naturally desisted. At this point you won't convince me they don't know exactly what they're doing.