all 28 comments

[–]yousaythosethings 30 insightful - 1 fun30 insightful - 0 fun31 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Zucker is right. This is a disturbing social experiment on children that will be likely to most severely impact autistic kids, proto-LGB kids, GNC kids of any kind really, and those who come from troubled homes.

In “Irreversible Damage,” or at least in the press surrounding it, Abigail Shrier shared that the behavior of schools shocked her the most. How school administrators actively and unapologetically undermined parent-child relationships because they were so high on their own sense of moral superiority. They pre-determined that parents were enemies and unsafe actors.

Those TQ videos for kids are also absolutely disturbing and nonsensical. Among the creepiest shit on YouTube.

[–]Femaleisnthateful[S] 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (11 children)

Seriously. The first 30 seconds of that video embedded in the link was, I thought, pretty progressive... boys and girls can dress however they want, have long or short hair, etc. Cool. Then it turned into an incoherent jumble of trying to avoid discussing the physical reality of male and female bodies. What does it mean to be male or female? We never find out. How to figure out if someone is male or female? Ask them their pronouns. Sounds like grooming, but OK.

[–]yousaythosethings 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yea like how is actual sex education going to happen if there’s no PC way to differentiate between those who can impregnate and those who can get pregnant? What are they going to do, tell students to check whether they have a front hole or not?

[–]SweetBabyCheeses 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

A front hole? Regardless of whether you’re male or female I really hope that’s only for peeing.

[–]Finnegan7921 4 insightful - 4 fun4 insightful - 3 fun5 insightful - 4 fun -  (8 children)

The hairdos are one thing, but the whole "dress however they want " stuff leads to problems. Little girls wearing "boy clothes" like overalls, jeans, etc. b/c she likes to play outdoors, or clothes with cartoon characters that are geared towards boys are one thing, a little boy in a ballerina dress is quite another. One is totally normal and acceptable, the other is weird.

[–]TurkishCoffee 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

It shouldn't. Really. I am critical of any clothing being labeled as "gendered". If men or boys want to wear a tutu, that's 100% ok with me. They're still men and boys. Manhood is no more defined by a dress, than womanhood is. It's why MtF individuals cannot be a woman, no matter how much makeup, clothing, or wigs they buy. I am not less of a woman, no matter how little makeup, or dresses I wear.

Going backwards and saying "lets keep these stupid rules about what clothing is and isn't manly and womanly" buys us nothing in this fight. It'll bite us in the long run.

[–]MarkTwainiac 14 insightful - 1 fun14 insightful - 0 fun15 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I agree. My sons were allowed to play freely with whatever they found in the costume box and to raid my closet. Sometimes they donned tutus, tiaras and earrings and clopped about in my high heels. Didn't hurt them a bit.

I have no problem with how guys like Brian Eno, Marc Bolan and Marilyn Peter Robinson dressed and "presented" in the 1970s and 80s. Had no problem with the younger brother from Sparks or Curt Cobain rocking dresses. Then again, I was raised Roman Catholic so was accustomed to men who wore full-length gowns as their customary attire.

Also, telling male children from the get-go that they're not allowed to wear certain kinds of clothing coz it's for females only will just make some of them desire it more - and it encourages sexual fetishism. To many people, especially men, the forbidden fruit is the most tantalizing and lusted-after commodity imaginable.

[–]worried19 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (5 children)

It's precisely because feminine little boys who want to wear dresses are seen as "weird" that so many of them are being transitioned.

Once upon a time, Jazz Jennings was just a gender nonconforming 3 year old who wanted to wear dresses and whose parents didn't want to let him wear them out of the house. An innocent child's fertility and sexual function was destroyed because society thinks a boy in a dress is wrong.

[–]Finnegan7921 1 insightful - 2 fun1 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 2 fun -  (4 children)

No, it was destroyed b/c nobody had the guts to tell the kid what reality was and that he couldn't wear a dress b/c he isn't a girl. A boy getting approval from his parents and society for abnormal behavior is what will fuck him up in the head, not the other way around.

[–]MarkTwainiac 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Finnegan, I disagree completely.

Forcing little kids to hew to the regressive, rigid sex stereotypes some of today's adults have around things like clothing and toys is indeed precisely a big part of the reason so many young people are IDing as trans and non-binary.

Another big part of the problem is shaming children and calling them "abnormal" for not fitting neatly and entirely into the very narrow, confining blue or pink gender boxes the way you appear to be advocating should be done.

It is indeed crucially important for parents and other adults to have the guts to tell children what reality is. Children need to know the reality of their sex, that there are two sexes, why that is so, and that our sex can't be changed.

But the reality is, clothing styles change all the time. And they have always varied widely across cultures and through history. Lots of men around the world at this very moment are wearing gowns, frocks, robes, long tunics that are essentially dresses; many wear sarongs, wrap skirts or kilts too. Men in the Western world used to routinely wear makeup, frilly clothes, high heels, stockings with garters, wigs and their hair very long. Huge variations across cultures and time have been the case since clothing first became a thing.

Informing children about "what reality is" means teaching them that it's a very big world we live in and that history is important. It means showing them that people in different cultures and in our own cultures/societies at different times in history have dressed and groomed in all sorts of different ways - and there is no one way that can be deemed "normal" or "abnormal."

One of the tasks of raising children well is to acquaint them with the norms of their own culture, help them navigate those norms and understand why they came into being, and understand the consequences for bucking those norms. But at the same time, it's also important to acquaint them with the norms of other cultures, particularly those they might be visiting or coming into contact with in the immediate term. Children need to be taught from an early age what is considered appropriate and inappropriate in any given social or cultural setting can vary dramatically - even within their own social/cultural and geographical sphere - and that sometimes respecting other people's cultures and boundaries means sucking it up and dressing and behaving in ways that don't feel right to you personally but others require so that they feel comfortable.

For example, it's important for kids to know that behaviors and manners of dress that might be perfectly acceptable within the privacy of their own homes are not acceptable in the homes of various families down the street or across town, or in places like school, sites of religious worship, a restaurant, the supermarket, the subway, etc. Similarly, what's acceptable in a child's own home or school might be considered untoward when visiting the grandparents or great-grandparents.

But teaching kids about norms and what's appropriate and not in different settings doesn't mean forcing them to swallow, rigidly adhere to and not question or complain about all those norms, particularly the regressive sexist dress norms you seem to be promoting. And it certainly doesn't involve telling them they are "abnormal" for disliking or wanting to buck those norms.

Would you say that in Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Iran, Somalia, Afghanistan and other countries where veiling of female persons is compulsory that girls and women must accept without question that "the reality is" they can't go out with their hair uncovered or ever show their bare arms or necks because they aren't male? Would you tell all the girls and women who resent and are fighting against forced hijabs, burkas, abayas and chadors that their behavior is abnormal and bound to fuck them up in the head?

What next, a return to sumptuary laws?

[–]ColoredTwice 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Such attitude is one of the reasons why transgender movement exist in the first place, and such attitude was always fueling homophobia. I don't think it is in any way good to anyone - it isonly reinforce classic sexist standarts.

[–]worried19 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Are you a gender critical feminist? We're abolitionists here. Gender is what causes harm to children. I was once a little girl who "passed" as a boy, and I still have a "butch lesbian" appearance as an adult. That's just who I am. There's nothing wrong with a girl being what society considers masculine or a boy being what society considers feminine.

Gender nonconforming little boys should be protected from a society that thinks there is something wrong with them for being who they are. Little Jazz would never have been harmed if the adults in his life had been loving and supportive of his desire to express himself. In all likelihood, he would have been a GNC boy who grew into an adult gay man, as 90% of very GNC little boys do.

[–]fuckupaddams 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Clothing is just fabric. It isn't the opinion of this group that there is such a thing as society-prescribed boy clothes and girl clothes. That is how we got into this mess.

[–]worried19 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Don't forget books. Authors are putting tons of transgender child characters in books for kids in elementary and middle school.

Even if your kid's school isn't that woke, every library in the country will have these books and young children will innocently pick them up.

[–]Chunkeeguy 11 insightful - 7 fun11 insightful - 6 fun12 insightful - 7 fun -  (1 child)

her six-year-old daughter (who’s being referred to as “NB” to protect her identity)

An unfortunate choice in this instance.

[–]arcticbasket 3 insightful - 2 fun3 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

You're right. They should have used NG, for "not girl." /s

[–]grixit 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

This story is a year old. Are there any updates?

[–][deleted] 10 insightful - 2 fun10 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

Good. Maybe this will start something.

[–]chz_g0d 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

Growing up, I remember having classes in drug/alcohol abuse and stranger danger awareness.. they push these kids to blindly trust and believe anything anyone says about their identity because that person "said so" and youre a meanie poo head if you don't believe or accept some shit they clearly made up. Do they want children to be unequipped with common sense and discernment? It just feels like an erosion of common sense and a gold paved road to arrested development. Why do TRAs seek short term feel good feelz instead of long term stability and healthy sense of self - then force their hang ups on children? Let kids be kids, teach them to love themselves the way they are.

[–]MarkTwainiac 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Do they want children to be unequipped with common sense and discernment?

Sadly, I've concluded that this is precisely the aim of many of these people. They want children to grow up with no sense of boundaries and no sense that they have the right to reject someone else's advances, entreaties and demands. And they want this to be the case whether those advances, entreaties and demands are for your friendship, handing over your lunch to them, sharing "girl talk," borrowing money, having them over to your house, or giving them sex.

Because the people pushing all this seem to be mostly pathological narcissists, abusers and fetishists.

[–]Femaleisnthateful[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I think a lot of TRAs are using kids to validate their own identities.

I also am convinced that alot of the transgender narrative is explicitly being used to facilitate grooming of children and erosion of boundaries, just as we know it is against women. Just pop over to womenarehuman.com and see all the predators using gender identity ideology as cover.

[–]MarkTwainiac 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Also, by creating the myth that people know they are trans in early childhood long before puberty kicks in, they've been able to push the lie that people are born trans and that having a trans identity has nothing to do with sex. The very term "transgender" was invented to take sex out of the equation and hide the fact that males who adopt or claim a cross-sex identity always are motivated by pursuit of their own sexual desires, pleasure, fantasies and fetishes. Being trans is entirely about sex for males.

[–][deleted] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Where....are we?

If that's the case trans invalidate themselves since women and girls don't exist. So there would be no transitioning and they are transitioning to nothingness.

[–]Spicylikegumbo 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Still waiting for "boys are not real", and men to be referred to as people with penises or ejaculators.