Annoying TIMs in makeup subs

submitted by wecandobetter from self.GenderCritical

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[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 3 fun10 insightful - 2 fun11 insightful - 3 fun -  (6 children)

They just cannot join a female space and not try to center the entire thing on themselves, can they?

I agree that these narcissists always have the center themselves everywhere they go, but I don't understand how makeup subs are female spaces. Long before the outbreak of today's transmania, males were very prominent in the makeup field as makeup artists, inventors, manufacturers and marketers as well as wearers/consumers.

The modern-day makeup industry was started by a Polish man named Maksymilian Faktorowicz (1877 – 1938), also known as Max Factor Sr. From Wikipedia:

As a founder of the cosmetics giant Max Factor & Company, he largely developed the modern cosmetics industry in the United States and popularised the term "make-up" in noun form based on the verb.

He is also known for doing makeovers for starlets and giving them their signature looks; his most iconic works include Jean Harlow's platinum hair, Clara Bow's bob, Lucille Ball's false lashes and red curls, and Joan Crawford's "Hunter's Bow", or overdrawn lips.

There were and are zillions of other guys like this. Such as the makeup artist and photographer François Nars who started NARS Cosmetics in 1994.

[–]wecandobetter[S] 12 insightful - 2 fun12 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 2 fun -  (5 children)

The industry, like most things, is built and controlled by men. The subreddits and FB groups that discuss the actual application and products, however, are probably 99% female.

[–]MarkTwainiac 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

Even if it's true that these forums are used predominantly by female people, that's still not making the case that they are "female spaces" that should be exclusively female.

When I was growing up in the era before Title IX, girls and women were kept out of vast parts of society. School sports, distance running, PE, most of the Ivy League, credit and bank loans, large numbers of jobs, fields of study, entire professions and many more things were entirely off limits to us because we were explicitly barred from or denied them on the basis of our sex.

Women fought long and hard to dismantle this needless and unfair sort of sex discrimination. Now it sounds to me like you're arguing for a new form of entirely arbitrary sex discrimination - and for what? Coz you like makeup and think makeup should be something only female people talk about online. Really?

If someone starts makeup groups for female people only and states that from the get-go, fine - those I can understand being considered "female spaces" and I will support those who want them to remain female-only.

But taking the position that any public, open online forum about makeup should automatically be assumed to be a female-only space coz only female people are the only people who are interested and into makeup strikes me as incredibly sexist. And regressive. Smacks of sumptuary laws too.

BTW, in the 1970s, 80s and 90s I had makeup done by professional makeup artists for a number of media gigs. More than half of these makeup artists were males, and they knew far more about makeup than I as young woman did. Probably more of them would've have been male, but it was the age of AIDS and guys in fields like cosmetology and hairdressing were dropping like flies back then.

Kick these guys out of your groups for being narcissistic assholes who must always dominate the convo and soak up all the attention. But not coz they're not female. There's nothing about being female that makes us inherently more inclined to liking or being interested in makeup than males.

[–]wecandobetter[S] 9 insightful - 2 fun9 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 2 fun -  (3 children)

I see how your experience is informing your view. And I have nothing at all against men using/being involved in makeup. Note, this post isn't complaining about drag queens, gays, or even just the ultra-rare but not nonexistent makeup experimenting straight dude, and I'm sorry you interpreted it that way. My problem is with TIMs who go out of their way to find a spot where a lot of women are hanging out, and then insist that those women drop what they're doing and cater to them them them. Teach me makeup, rate my look, tell me I'm pretty me me me.

[–]MarkTwainiac 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I understand where you're coming from. But I think the issue you have here is with narcissists, attention-hoggers and TIMs, not males per se.

No offense, but I think you are being disingenuous when you attribute my comments to the incorrect way that I in your view "interpreted" your OP. You did not make your OP about

TIMs who go out of their way to find a spot where a lot of women are hanging out, and then insist that those women drop what they're doing and cater to them them them.

You started this thread specifically to rail against TIMs in makeup subs and forums, which you claimed are a "female space."

You also used misandrist language to body-shame male individuals.

I am concerned that if young women start saying that "makeup and makeup forums are for females only" or mainly for females coz females supposedly have an innate inclination towards cosmetics and face paint, then males will be justified in going back to the days of my youth when men routinely said that marathon running events, sports, architecture, engineering, mathematics, logic, science, IT, video gaming, finance, film making, medicine, the visual arts, philosophy and such are for males and males only coz males are innately inclined to such and girls/women are pinheads who have no idea...

I cannot begin to list how many times in my life I was not allowed to apply to a school, register for a course or put in a job application solely because of my female sex. Please take some time to think about the repercussions of what you seem to be advocating.

Sex segregation is called for in certain, specific circumstances - sports, communal toilets outside the home, changing rooms, shelters, rape and violence refuges, support groups and services, hospital wards, some medical care, prisons and so on. Women's rights advocates are having a hard enough time keeping hold of and justifying these few female-only spaces in today's era of transmania.

By making the claim that online makeup forums are and should be sacrosanct "female spaces" you seem to be trivializing and directly undermining these efforts.

My view isn't just informed by my own personal experience. It's informed by Feminism and Anti-Sexism 101.

[–]wecandobetter[S] 6 insightful - 2 fun6 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 2 fun -  (1 child)

I'll agree the makeup forums were mischaracterized, and that was not intentional. I do not however apologize for 'body shaming' AGPs loudly larping as women. I'm also going to point out the hypocrisy: this exact sub is none of those things listed, yet has historically been effectively off limits to men. Ovarit is even more off limits. Tightly censored and policed. Why? We all know why.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I am all for all-female or female-only forums to discuss feminism, women's rights, women's heath, biology, issues etc.

My issue is with the idea that you seem to be promoting which says makeup forums are and should be female (only) spaces. Coz being interested in makeup is supposedly a female thing. Which presumably you think all female people share.

This is regressive sexist BS.

BTW, I don't believe this forum/sub is off-limits to men. I've benefitted from the input of several men who've posted here, and have had many interesting and thought-provoking exchanges with them too.