all 25 comments

[–]MarkTwainiac 30 insightful - 3 fun30 insightful - 2 fun31 insightful - 3 fun -  (5 children)

I agree with your points.

But I have special problems with the pro-coddling reasoning that, as you aptly put it, goes like this:

"What is the damage in playing along with trans, especially when not doing so cause them so much distress?", they may ask.

My question is, why is there so much focus on the psychological distress of the small segment of the population who calls themselves trans?

Why is transpain the only pain that matters to the point where the whole world is expected to bend over backwards to ameliorate it?

Why is transpain made out to be the worst suffering that human beings have ever experienced?

Why is transpain of such paramount importance that huge swathes of the rest of the population - girls & women; lesbians and gays; believers in biology; people who value free speech, and many more - are expected to give up our rights and suck it up in order to try to make people with "gender dysphoria" and sexual fetishes feel better?

More than one in four adults (26%) in the US have a serious, life-limiting disability, and approximately eight percent of children are seriously disabled too. Many disabilities cause huge psychic pain as well as enormous, excruciating physical suffering.

But in the popular culture and press there's no constant hue and cry about the distress and difficulties of being disabled the way there is about the distress and difficulties supposedly experienced by the small segment of the population that, for one reason or the other, would prefer to be the opposite sex - or of no sex.

Talk about double standards. The prioritizing of transpain is the new and penultimate "privilege." People who ID as trans are the new sacred, superior caste we're all supposed to bow down before. Fuck that.

https://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/disabilityandhealth/infographic-disability-impacts-all.html#:~:text=61%20million%20adults%20in%20the,is%20highest%20in%20the%20South.

[–]MezozoicGay 20 insightful - 1 fun20 insightful - 0 fun21 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

Why transpain is more pain than intersex pain, why transpain is more pain than lesbian pain, why transpain is more than women and girls pain?

As gender ideology physhologically distressing and hurting intersex people (especially parts with "third sex" or "less a man" - ask any intersex person), physically and psychologically hurting lesbians (and gay men in lesser extend).

Why making sure that they not feeling transpain is worth making others suffer instead?

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 18 insightful - 1 fun18 insightful - 0 fun19 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Why transpain is more pain than intersex pain, why transpain is more pain than lesbian pain, why transpain is more than women and girls pain?

Because men. Because men. Because, and I can't stress this enough, men.

[–]Icecreamaddict 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Because people convinced themselves that transwoman are the same as woman but with extra ‘oppression’. I am convinced it’s because in the far left men avoiding dealing with their misogyny by convincing themselves that the true oppressed person is a man. I have seen way to many comments on social media saying that gender equality been achieved, and I think men really do believe that just because women can vote we have achieved ‘true equality’.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Indeed, it's ridiculous the amount of power they actually have and, in spite of that, it's still not enough for them. I don't know of any other group of people who is catered to this extend, either. They certainly are not the most oppresed group on history as they claim. My only solace is that people are going to eventually get tired of this. It's not happening as fast as I would like, though...

[–]windrunner 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I don't know of any other group of people who is catered to this extend, either.

This is exactly why I support LGB to drop the T. Our issues are not the same. They've attached themselves with the LGBs and are actually damaging us, what we stand for and especially our same-sex attraction. I've never seen gay people act the way they do, I've never seen gay people demand, insult, witch hunt and threaten people who were homophobic or who slightly disagreed with us.

[–]EveSerpent 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

And the fact that there are real world consequences to playing along.

[–]windrunner 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

the consequences are mainly for girls and women and those don't actually matter, right.

[–]Finnegan7921 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

What i Find funny is that they immediately go into "extreme distress" at the slightest provocation. People who do that aren't mentally stable in the first place. People just don't suck it up and deal with the bumps in life's road anymore. Everything they don't agree with is treated as some extreme threat to their very existence. That is not a sign of someone with good mental health.

Even with the election you would read, time and time again, people who said Trump staying in office was a matter of life and death for them. A matter of life and death...yet would offer no reasons why and people went along with it. If he was so dangerous to these people personally, how the hell did they survive the past 4 years ? My question is : wtf are these people going to do when NOTHING in their lives change ?

[–]LasagnaRossa 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What I find funny is that they immediately go into "extreme distress" at the slightest provocation.

You reminded me an old conversation I had online with a person about transexuality. I was never unpolite and my thoughts were pretty philosophical.

Well, it turns out I was talking with a trans person who, at the end, asked me all offended why I was so hateful with them. I didn't even know who I had on the other side, I talked with them as I talk with everyone.

That conversation led me to reaffirm my suspicions: these people have mental issues. Any other person would have not reacted that way.

And I speak as a person who has her own issues, uh. I recognize I can't policy the thoughts of others and understand that if I get offended by some things, it's up to me.

[–]HarlanRogers 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (8 children)

The issue I find is that it's a kafkatrap for people who generally intend to be civil to others, such as myself, and that makes me very uncomfortable.

I don't like conflict or hurting others, but I also don't like being wrong. So if I were to tell a trans person that I think their perceptions of themselves are not based in ontological truth and are ultimately delusional, I'm worried I'll be branded a horrible person or I'll hurt them enough to make them self-harm. It's impossible to agree to disagree on this issue because it's a fundamental part of how they view themselves. And the militant mindset TRA's have encouraged each other to adopt makes it even worse.

So for the sake of avoiding needless arguments or being outcast from groups, I ultimately do identify trans people by their pronouns. I totally agree that enabling the warped perception of self is only hurting them in the long run, but I'd like to avoid getting into arguments about this in apolitical contexts, particularly in public. I've got to look out for myself rather than break myself trying to convince every trans person that they're wrong about themselves.

[–]EveSerpent 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

They already know they’re wrong about themselves. That’s why they’re so very desperate to have everyone else in the world validate their delusions by pretending along with them. They can’t even convince themselves.

[–]HarlanRogers 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

I think they, or at least some portion of the population, do sincerely believe these things though. That's one of the reasons they're so militant about it, they're convinced they're right.

[–]EveSerpent 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I have to disagree. If anyone truly believed a TIM was a woman, then his concerns and interests would be treated as actual women’s are: ignored, dismissed, mocked. Not treated as though they are the words of a god that must be obeyed, like they are now.

What if women had actually wanted integrated public bathrooms for some crazy reason? Wouldn’t happen. Instead we are trying to fight against this, and we—the absolute majority over TIMs, with real safety concerns—are shot down.

No woman is making an effort to have grown men share changing rooms with their 10 year old daughters. TIMs are the ones championing this and winning.

ETC. ETC. ETC. Because everyone knows they’re men and so they are pandered to. TIFs are largely ignored by everyone because who cares, they’re women.

I believe they’re all only militant about it due to their narcissism and misogyny. Nothing more.

[–]MezozoicGay 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

If anyone truly believed a TIM was a woman, then his concerns and interests would be treated as actual women’s are: ignored, dismissed, mocked. Not treated as though they are the words of a god that must be obeyed, like they are now.

Just like in majority of discussions, issues and laws - transmen are ignored, and instead narrative is shifted to transwomen, even if it started about transmen. And are mentioned only when they can be used as "gotcha!".

[–]emptiedriver 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

There's probably a flexibility around do they/don't they believe, similar to whether people really believe in god - it's not as simple as whether they believe in the coffee table, but some people have a level of commitment to their way of seeing the world that makes their understanding of their sex deeply important and seemingly true. It's not a rational belief, they think they are "women" but also trans women when that is more important, but it's still something deeply held and central to their lives...

[–]ColoredTwice 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

When someone misgendering me, I am not jumping on them and not throwing tantrums, even thought it hurts sometimes (as people using "you are not even fully woman" as argument against me sometimes, just because I am intersex). I know I am woman, my womanhood does not rely on someone else's perception of me. If they can be woman only when everyone around is forced to mention to them all the time that they are women - then sorry, but the king is naked.

[–]ColoredTwice 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I love that here is no downvotes.

People disagree - and putting a statement why, answering. Other people don't afraid to disagree either. On Reddit (or Ovarit to some extent) such answers would be just downvoted without any answer given.

[–]Finnegan7921 2 insightful - 1 fun2 insightful - 0 fun3 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And there lies the problem with "wordcrimes" being reason enough to get someone fired, etc. Obviousslurs are no good, and valid reason to give someone the boot from a job. Calling the guy a "tranny" with the pejorative connotations that word brings is no good and people shouldn't do that in a workplace. Same with the N word, other racial slurs, guys calling women bitches, gay slurs etc. Workers shouldn't have to deal with that crap at work. In the rest of the public realm, things become more gray area for me, tbh. Freedom of speech is what it is, and this idea that you always have to watch what you say, yet some people don't due to their identity getting a free pass (looking at you, Joy Reid, Jemele Hill, etc. who claim that every white person is racist and still have high profile media jobs) is total bullshit. Engaging in a debate and respectfully disagreeing is never enough, imo to get someone canned or to whip up the woke mob online, but they do it b/c they know their arguments have no merit whatsoever and this is how they silence people. It will only get worse in the next 4 years. It will take someone with guts of titanium to take a real stand against this insanity.

[–]Shesstealthy 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (4 children)

My understanding is that a delusion is only classified as a delusion if it's in contradiction to what the person's community believes. So if you grew up in a cult that said you were the embodiment of a god, you believing it is not a delusion. So there's that.

Voices are real, to the person that hears them, and they may have concrete material causes in terms of how your brain works. Loads of otherwise hralthy people experience auditory hallucinations. Voices are only a problem if they interfere with your day to day function. For some they are quite helpful.

With an anorexic person the issue is less that they think they're fat and more that they restrict food to a dangerous degree.

So while I agree that trans people's feelings should not be allowed to harm others, and that they like everyone else need protection when their beliefs can cause them to harm themselves, I also believe it's unhelpful to say their beliefs are "not real".

[–]forwardback 14 insightful - 3 fun14 insightful - 2 fun15 insightful - 3 fun -  (0 children)

I also believe it's unhelpful to say their beliefs are "not real".

Sorry, as a scientist, this statement reasoning does not compute. Reality can be unpleasant, but denial is problematic, to understate.

[–]EveSerpent 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Anorexics restrict food because they believe they’re fat, so their incorrect belief/delusion must be fixed in order to prevent that harmful behaviour. TIMs/TIFs harm women because their incorrect beliefs/delusions that they’re incredibly special and different allow them free reign to behave in deeply misogynistic ways. Addressing their narcissism and other mental disorders will help to curb their anti-social behaviour.

Enabling their delusions will only perpetuate it.

[–]MarkTwainiac 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I also believe it's unhelpful to say their beliefs are "not real".

Sorry, there's a huge body of evidence from psychology and psychiatry and the behavioral sciences that shows it's really not helpful - to the deluded, to those in their midst, or to society as a whole - to reinforce deluded peoples' delusions.

You don't have to hit people over the head with reality by screaming at them that they're wrong, of course. That indeed is not helpful. But you also don't have to play along and coddle them, particularly when they are adults.

[–]BiologyIsReal[S] 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

It really feels like transgenderism have become a religion by now. Under that view, their beliefs may not be classified as delusion, however that neither change that they are not the opposite sex nor the importance of sex. They are free to believe so despite all the evidence to the contrary. They problem arises when they force their beliefs on everone else. They are free to refuse help, but they are not only hurting themselves but also draging down everyone else with them. So, it's necessary to point out the truth.

[–]ArthnoldManacatsaman 5 insightful - 1 fun5 insightful - 0 fun6 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I suspect a lot of these people would answer no to these questions, but they may say these examples are not comparable with trans.

Correct. Having used the anorexia argument before (for lack of a better term for it) I was promptly told that the two things 'aren't remotely the same' and my point was not engaged with further.