all 25 comments

[–]BiologyIsReal 26 insightful - 1 fun26 insightful - 0 fun27 insightful - 1 fun -  (13 children)

Trans ideology is a self-contradictory mess which falls apart as soon you start asking the most simple questions and this is a very good example of it. Yes, they want to implement self-ID because "gender identity" is supposedly this very important thing that only oneself can determine. But, at the same time, they yell "Not a true trans" when you mention a bad trans or a detransitioner. And that is why they work very hard to ensure the general public neither hear about of the Karen White or Jonathan Yaniv of the world nor about the incresing number of detransitions.

However, they can't hide the truth forever and, I think, sooner or later these policies will backfire on them, which makes me wonder what is the objetive of all of this. Obviously, trans people themselves are trying to live out their fantasies and they're so good at denying reality than they can't (or don't want to) see how the general population will eventually stop catering to their demands. But what their supporters (and I mean those who are in positions of power and not the average internet troll chanting TWAW) gain with this? Is it money? An excuse for human experimentation or eugenics? Are they counting on a ultra conservative backlash? Or do they really think we are all accept this "sex is a spectrum" nonsense?

[–]diapason 16 insightful - 1 fun16 insightful - 0 fun17 insightful - 1 fun -  (7 children)

But what their supporters (and I mean those who are in positions of power and not the average internet troll chanting TWAW) gain with this? Is it money? An excuse for human experimentation or eugenics? Are they counting on a ultra conservative backlash? Or do they really think we are all accept this "sex is a spectrum" nonsense?

For the drug companies it's money, for the politicians it's votes and extra support and possibly money, for the transgender activists and philanthropists it's personal gain from the ideology, and for the average person it's "being on the right side of history"/going along with progressive ideals

[–]forwardback 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I submit: it may also be "subjugate women and keep them busy", as women are often the driving force, and actual doers, of anything that gets accomplished. A diversion as well as an assault. Edit. Cannot get it right the first time. Argghh

[–]diapason 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

True. They take advantage of women's work and kindness to push their agenda

[–]BiologyIsReal 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yeah, I can't believe the amount of women who are pushing this ideology...

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Votes are just are temporary gain, though, becuase they can easily lose them in future elections once more people learn about the laws that are being proposed or voted around the world. That is why I suggested they may expect a conservative backlash. As TRA have attatched themselves to feminism and LGB's rights, it may be them who get the blame for this.

[–]yousaythosethings[S] 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

I expect gay people to bare a lot of the blame unfortunately. Am gay myself. That’s why gay people need to be en masse among the first voices of opposition that break through and I think we are also the key to exposing this since we are bearing a disproportionate burden of the corrosive effects and will certainly have many stories to tell.

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Between TRA, weird kink communities going to pride, and the ""MAPS"" (PEDOS) latching on to gay movements I feel terrible for gay people. It's not their responsibility any more than the rest of us to stamp these movements out, they didn't do anything wrong and it's not their fault that awful people have insidiously inserted themselves into what they feel is the easy entry point.

But the general public doesn't see the difference. With how much TRAs have made people believe that the "cishets" are meanie phobics who can't speak on this issue and the desire of politicians to pander to the LGBT groups, gay people are our best bet for starting the converation. In my opinion anyway.

We all have an obligation to fight these people, especially the pedos, but it's shitty to have to do so to protect your own public perception.

[–]Britishbulldog 4 insightful - 1 fun4 insightful - 0 fun5 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

And the women. Gays and women are going to take a lot of shit.

[–]endless_assfluff 13 insightful - 1 fun13 insightful - 0 fun14 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

"What's the end goal of all this" is an interesting question to ask. I wonder whether there's an ideological component to it where the end goal is avoiding culpability.

By that I mean, there's this recurring theme in abuse/oppression where the oppressed party says "please, stop, you're hurting me!" and the oppressor's response is "well, you're hurting me too! It hurt when you accused me of mistreatment!" At that point---and I assume you're perfectly familiar with this, don't want to over-explain---the oppressor is the one responsible for stopping the mistreatment, but they don't have any intrinsic motivation to do so. Not only would they have to willingly give up power, they'd have to acknowledge that they've been engaging in immoral behavior. And that's emotionally rough. It's even rougher to admit that you were at fault and that someone you consider inferior was right all along.

Of course, this often arises from a form of black-and-white thinking where the oppressor sees any criticism as a personal attack. They think sexism is bad---of course sexism is bad! And because they think sexism is bad, they can't possibly be sexist! Wait, now people are saying this action is sexist? Why, that can't be true! People they know who aren't sexist do that all the time! Those people saying it's sexist are a bunch of vindictive nutters.

But that approach is epistemologically weak. That is, say there are three people who own houses with basements. A friend visits the first person's house, goes down to the basement, and says "hey, your basement's dirty," to which person 1 immediately responds "Oh no, I'm sorry about that! I'll take care of it right away." Another friend visits the second person's house, goes down to the basement, and says "hey, your basement's dirty." Person 2 gets defensive. "What?! My basement can't be dirty! I'm a clean person! My house is clean! Where do you get off, accusing people of having dirty basements like some kind of neat-freak victim," and then never goes down to check. Because of course it's clean! And the third person goes down to the basement on their own before the friend visits, to try and get out any cobwebs beforehand, and invites their friend to hunt down any specks of dust if they so desire. So at the end of the day, who's most likely to have a clean basement? (My apologies if I come off as over-explaining; I'm assuming you know this perfectly well. I just enjoy the metaphor.)

So who's more likely to be sexist/racist/homophobic? The person who says "of course I'm not sexist/racist/homophobic! I know that sexism, racism, and homophobia are bad!" or the person who says "yeah, I've done sexist/racist/homophobic things. Now I know exactly what the problems with my actions are, and I owe it to the people I hurt to be better." But then again, who's going to be perceived as less sexist/racist/homophobic by the uninitiated? The second person directly admitted to problematic behavior, after all. I've seen people who call themselves feminists fall into this trap, too.

Anyway, my point is that many of the things TIMs focus on echo the oppressor's perception of how the oppressed class is behaving. The Oppression Olympics, for example. To the oppressor, their victims aren't victims at all, but rather using their oppressed-class status to label whole groups of people as Bad. Now, if he chooses to, a man can transition from "evil man" to "literally the most oppressed"---and suddenly, not only is he no longer in the Bad group, he gets to do the fun bit of telling everyone how hard he has it and how everyone who's not trans should feel guilty about themselves.

Also, many of the things TIMs label as oppression have to do with being accused of misbehavior. It's "men fear that women will laugh at them, women fear that men will kill them," in a different package. Look at the dangerous and violent behavior they accuse radfems of perpetuating: saying transwomen are men. Saying the laws they promote are giving sexual predators easier access to women. Saying that other people are allowed to have sexual boundaries and you can't get around them by lying. Not validating them hard enough. Stealing women's spaces, movements, and identities. So, several ways of saying "stop, stop, your basement is dirty." Odd that physical violence isn't an issue... and that they're more concerned with chastising radfems than the conservative men who are actually killing them.

Their treatment of radical feminists is in line with the idea that if someone does something bigoted once, they are automatically a bigot now and forever and must be chastised. Make a mistake once, say something problematic once and it leaves a black mark on your soul forever, and admitting any fault means you know you're a bad person and deserve it. And lastly, the belief that membership in an oppressed group implies that someone is 100% the victim, always, and so therefore doesn't need to reflect on how their own actions could be problematic.

So I think part of the allure for some is a twofer: behaving the way they think oppressed people act, where the end goal is to scream down, browbeat, and accuse the oppressors rather than to get the boot off their neck; and removing themselves from the privileged groups that have a responsibility to reflect on their own behavior. Because the truth is, yes, they are bigots, and the basement's collecting dust while they claim "I can't be bigoted! I'm trans! I'm vulnerable!" It's all a big misdirection.

That's my take, anyway.

[–]BiologyIsReal 15 insightful - 1 fun15 insightful - 0 fun16 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

Yes, they say they are asking for human rights when in fact they are asking for privileges and the erasure of women's rights. And many of their supposed oppresion is self-imposed. Like, for instance, they complain they struggle with dating due to transphobia, but that is actually in great part because they lie about their sex, and they may undergone body modifications that turn off a lot of people. Where I'm from prostitution seems to be a more common issue with TiMs, but surely there must be better ways to adress this than codifying gender identity into law...

And the black and white thinking is something I noticed with the woke crew, too. They see everything through opression lens and once you have been labeled as oppresor you can not do enough penance, not matter how small or untrue the fault. They also treat groups of people as monolith and think you can either be a helpless oppresed who can do no wrong or an evil oppresor who can do no good. The possibilty that a person can be both victim and agressor depending on the circunstances seems unthinkable for them.

[–]yousaythosethings[S] 8 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 0 fun9 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

For the politicians it’s easy woke points. Genderists have hitched their star to gay people who set up liberals to be on the right side of history given the widespread support (that now feels especially shallow and performative). Genderists have also latched onto BLM, and race is a much more difficult issue. In the U.S. the left is controlling speech on race and gender, and is offering moral superiority, but is not really offering solutions or a path forward on race. So they see caving to gender demands as gaining easy woke points (plus they largely are not hearing the opposition from within because we are being silenced and socially pressured) for little cost while distracting from their ineptitude on race. It doesn’t help that Big Pharma and Med Tech approve. Even the Republicans seem to be silent on transing kids and certainly on medicalizing proto-gay kids. And of course Republicans also don’t care much about women in prison.

[–]BiologyIsReal 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

I'm not from the US and I don't know all the nuances about race there, but I found surprising TRA got a pass with the Trans Lives Matter thing. Not to mention all the comparisons between TiMs and black women, and the "Actually, white people invented sex" talk... Though, I guess it comes down to their usual tactic of silencing opposing views.

[–][deleted] 8 insightful - 7 fun8 insightful - 6 fun9 insightful - 7 fun -  (0 children)

Very interesting that white people invented the Y chromosome 180 million years ago. Did they time travel? ahahah

[–]itsnotaboutewe 12 insightful - 1 fun12 insightful - 0 fun13 insightful - 1 fun -  (2 children)

What is stopping any normal man or woman from declaring themselves to be a transwoman and then becoming a spokeswoman for the GC viewpoint? They would definitely be trans because of self-ID so nobody could accuse them of manipulating the situation for their own agenda. They could do the breakfast shows as the voice of trans people and tell the world about the number of AGPs versus transsexuals who identify as trans. They could discuss men in women's sport, why transwomen like her really want to get into the women's toilets, and many other things that women are not allowed to speak about. They could open up the whole conversation because they couldn't be challenged on their transness because anyone who says they are trans is trans. Even a discussion with a TRA on Good Morning Britain about why this person is or isn't trans would show just how nonsensical the whole idea is. Ricky Gervais would be brilliant in this role.

[–]yousaythosethings[S] 10 insightful - 1 fun10 insightful - 0 fun11 insightful - 1 fun -  (1 child)

Yep this is exactly what I mean. The right person for the job who is charismatic can get this done.

[–]oyasuminasai50 6 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 0 fun7 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

What is stopping any normal man or woman from declaring themselves to be a transwoman and then becoming a spokeswoman for the GC viewpoint?

This is the necessary consequence of the "gates open, come on in" attitude that has typified the LGBT community in recent decades. Will they (we) ever learn that a little bit of gatekeeping is okay?

[–][deleted] 11 insightful - 1 fun11 insightful - 0 fun12 insightful - 1 fun -  (4 children)

People have already challenged the idea of self ID. Zuby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuby_(rapper) claimed to identify as a woman while breaking the women's deadlift record. To the surprise of no-one, it was easy for him. Things like that don't seem to have stopped TRAs. Even in the sports arena which is imo the most glaring and obvious area of trans hypocrisy.

Another example, I know of an internet quasi-celebrity NB (female) person dating a person who claimed to be a detransitioned female who was found to be lying(male). So they are claimed to be in a queer lesbian relationship. When I saw that, I rolled my eyes and thought, this is idiotic and surely everyone will refuse to accept this. But person who initially reported this was forced to bend over backward and validate he/him lesbians, his identity as a lesbian, said it "wasn't her place" to call a spade a spade. I was disappointed but not surprised. TBH I don't think forced is the right word, I think she honestly believed this crap.

I heard a very interesting tidbit here (back in reddit days) that while woman can't be defined by anything except feeling like one or wanting to be one, the defining and only real feature of a transwoman is being born male. That's always stuck with me because it's true - transpeople have more ability to biologically categorize what they are than me, a woman.

Anyways, people have believed more harmful lies than the TRA ones and for longer, so I'm not optimistic.

[–]yousaythosethings[S] 7 insightful - 1 fun7 insightful - 0 fun8 insightful - 1 fun -  (3 children)

Another example, I know of an internet quasi-celebrity NB (female) person dating a person who claimed to be a detransitioned female who was found to be lying(male). So they are claimed to be in a queer lesbian relationship.

While I feel like I don't want to know, I also feel compelled to ask who this is. Non-binary often feels more toxic than trans. Especially because non-binary is how they end up involving and ensnaring actual gay people, including by convincing lesbians we're not really women because society has a way of not treating us like women.

I heard a very interesting tidbit here (back in reddit days) that while woman can't be defined by anything except feeling like one or wanting to be one, the defining and only real feature of a transwoman is being born male. That's always stuck with me because it's true - transpeople have more ability to biologically categorize what they are than me, a woman.

Very excellent point. The double standards seem endless. We should be asking these questions why can't we (in my case female) identify as a trans woman? Especially if sex is so meaningless to them.

[–]PenseePansy 7 insightful - 2 fun7 insightful - 1 fun8 insightful - 2 fun -  (2 children)

We should be asking these questions why can't we (in my case female) identify as a trans woman?

Yeah: cuz if TWAW... then WATW naturally follows, right? It works both ways.

Seriously, I think that we may have found the Death Star's thermal exhaust port here... and also the single proton torpedo to fire into it :)

[–]NecessaryScene1 4 insightful - 3 fun4 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 3 fun -  (1 child)

"ContrarianQuinn" on Twitter had a good go this time last year:

https://twitter.com/ContrarianQuinn/status/1208367259502010368?s=19

I am a trans woman. I was born with a vagina. Yes we exist. We are an even more vulnerable minority within a minority. We face all the same things as other trans women except many of us also menstruate and are vulnerable to pregnancy

We are at even greater risk of sexual and domestic violence than other trans women, but also we are trafficked, sold into marriage as children, and have our genitals mutilated in huge numbers globally

We are subject to medical gatekeeping which prevents us from receiving gender affirming surgery, medical science has left us in the dust and surgeons refuse to give us neovaginas simply because we have vaginas.

And the worst part is that bioessentialism excludes us even from the trans rights movement just because of the genitals we were born with. They say trans women born with vaginas aren't valid and insist on defining us by our genitals.

But the #MayaForstater case has established that the belief that sex is observable is a philosophical belief no worthy of respect in a democratic society and the time has come for the trans community to get with the times and accept trans women born with vaginas #translivesmatter

Trans women born with vaginas are and always have been trans women, regardless of the assumptions a bioessentialist white supremacist cisheteropatriarchal society makes about us based on our bodies.

We face an insidious form of transphobia known as transsexism. These are the norms which privilege trans people who's bodies meet bioessentialist expectations about what it is to be trans over those who don't (eg. trans women born with penises over trans women born with vaginas)

This is the Meta Trans Woman Pride Flag, representing all trans women born with vaginas. That might look like a uterus but if you turn it upside down it kinda looks like a lady penis, demonstrating how meaningless so-called "sex" actually is. #TransRightsAreHumanRights

[–]yousaythosethings[S] 3 insightful - 1 fun3 insightful - 0 fun4 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

This is beautiful. But the mole would not even need to admit she is female because biological sex is now "private medical information" so she could get enraged at anyone asking her for that information or questioning it. "How dare you?!"

[–]Rationalmind 5 insightful - 2 fun5 insightful - 1 fun6 insightful - 2 fun -  (0 children)

This whole election cycle has been a battle to continue the culture wars. We never stopped being racist, sexist, and homophobic.

[–]emptiedriver 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

The whole thing is a popularity contest. There are already "non-binary" trans people who are perfectly ordinary by any external standard but self-identify as trans and become part of the brave and stunning team. I think one of them was recently voted into some kind of office and that was considered a big deal somewhere. But does that weaken the trans brand?

Only to the extent that more and more people identify that way, and then everyone's trans - so the way that everyone started experimenting and came out as gay or bisexual and it's no longer cool or alternative becomes true of trans... BUT the problem with that is that it simultaneously erases sex difference. It stops trans specialness from being particularly special, but it legitimizes gender difference as the definition we're concerned with instead of physical sex. One could imagine a sort of loop where people get over the trans story since everyone is now trans and it's boring, and then start being concerned about material reality since medical concerns don't go away so that sex categories come back, but there's a question of how long that takes & everyone affected in the meantime

[–]Britishbulldog 1 insightful - 1 fun1 insightful - 0 fun2 insightful - 1 fun -  (0 children)

I really want a tall butch lesbian to do that top bit for the sole reason of showing the absolute farce.